A couple weeks ago I blogged about a study published by The Barna Group which found that while “more than seven out of ten Americans (72%) claim they have made a personal commitment to Jesus Christ that is important in their life today…” only 17% of adults said that “a person’s faith is meant to be developed mainly by involvement in a local church.”
That sparked some very strong opinions on both sides of the issue. On one hand we received comments like this: “I have been a non-church going Christian for over a year, and I can assure you that when it is done in the will of God, it is anything but a problem.” We also received comments from the opposing viewpoint: “I hear so many people defend not going to church. If you notice their defense is full of holes.”
Can the virtual church (online audio sermons, video services, Christian discussion groups, etc) replace the physical church?
Give us your opinion in this week’s poll and post your comments here.
In His Service,
Paul Steinbrueck
OurChurch.Com
65 Comments
Hello Kathryn
You are still not documenting what you write from the Word of God. A good writer of the Glorious Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ always documents what he or she writes so people know where they are coming from and also so we can check out what has been written, whether it is truth from God’s Word. I had to write many papers in College and all had to be documented so who was reading the paper could check out if the truth was from God’s Word. When we document our writings from God’s Word it gives our writings more credibility to the reader as truth from God’s Word. By the way we are still in the church age and will still be in the church age until the rapture. Revelation 4:1 says, “After this I looked, and behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard as it were a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.” The Church is now seen in heaven in Revelation chapter 4, represented by the four and twenty elders sitting clothed in white raiment; and had on their heads crowns of gold verse 4. And they are seen in heaven with Christ until The Battle of Armageddon Revelation 19:11-20:1-15 when the Revelation of Christ takes place and Christ and the Redeemed come back to earth and Christ sits up His 1000 years reigh Revelation 20:4. Bye for now have a great week, A man who Jesus Christ died for Dr. Rudy Caldwell Pastor 1145 Amith Road Galloway, Ohio 43119.
Welcome back, Mr. Caldwell. Ironically, while you criticize Kathryn for making undocumented assertions, you make undocumented assertions as well (ref. Matthew 7:3-5), as demonstrated by the following rebuttal.
Now, to support your institutional authority as “the pastor,” you cited Ephesians 4:11. But where does Ephesians 4:11 identify “the pastor” as “the central authority of the congregational hierarchy”?
Ephesians 4:11 [NIV]
It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers,
*Cross ref. Ephesians 4:11 [NASB] and Ephesians 4:11 [KJV].
*Cross ref. Ephesians 4:11 [Greek].
When reading this verse, many people claim that Ephesians 4:11 refers to a “Five Fold Ministry” of “[institutional] ‘church’ government.” However, Ephesians 4:11 refers to spiritually gifted functions (Ephesians 4:7-8, cross ref. 1 Corinthians 12:4-11, 28-30, Romans 12:6-8), not offices proper (ref. 1 Peter 5:1-3, Matthew 20:25-28, cross ref. Ephesians 5:21).
Now, within this verse, the Greek word for “pastor [Latin]” is poimen (Strong’s #4166), which means:
“1. a herdsman, esp. a shepherd
a. in the parable, he to whose care and control others have committed themselves, and whose precepts they follow” [Strong’s Lexicon]
“a shepherd (literally or figuratively):–shepherd, pastor” [Strong’s Greek Dictionary]
As demonstrated by the above material, poimen refers to “a herdsman” or “a shepherd.” A shepherd is an individual who tends [Hebrew] [Greek] sheep (Isaiah 40:11, Jeremiah 31:10, ref. Genesis 31:38-40), such as in leading the sheep to grazable pastures and drinkable water (ref. Genesis 29:1-9, Genesis 30:38, Exodus 2:16-19, Jeremiah 33:12, etc.), protecting the sheep from predators and/or thieves (ref. 1 Samuel 17:34-35, Isaiah 31:4, Luke 2:8, John 10:1-3, 11-13, etc.), and caring for the sheep’s wellbeing (ref. Isaiah 40:11, Genesis 33:13, Matthew 12:11, etc.). In exchange for this intensive daily care, shepherds harvested milk (Deuteronomy 32:14, 1 Corinthians 9:7, etc.), wool (Genesis 31:19, Genesis 38:12-13, Deuteronomy 18:4, 1 Samuel 25:2, 4, 7, Job 31:20, etc.), horns (Exodus 19:13, Joshua 6:4-6, 8, 13, 1 Chronicles 15:28, etc.), skins (Exodus 25:5, Exodus 26:14, Exodus 35:7, Hebrews 11:37, etc.), and meat (Exodus 12:4, 7, Numbers 9:11, 1 Samuel 14:34, 2 Samuel 17:29, Isaiah 22:13, etc.) from the sheep. As a result, the shepherd and the sheep developed a strong interrelationship, which usually resulted in the shepherd adopting certain sheep as beloved personal pets (ref. 2 Samuel 12:3). For further reading about this subject, see this article.
When this analogy is applied to people, the gift of poimen refers to the gifted ability of daily supervisory caretaking, as in the metaphorical interpersonal equivalent of the above activities (ref. Ephesians 4:12-14, Acts 20:28-35, Titus 1:7-11, James 5:14, 1 Thessalonians 5:12, Hebrews 13:7, 17, etc., cross ref. Psalm 23:1-6, Revelation 7:17, Ezekiel 34). In essence, the gift of poimen represents “servant leadership,” where the mandate for this style of leadership relies solely on meeting others’ outstanding needs (ref. Matthew 9:36, Mark 6:34). In fact, this style of leadership offended the Egyptians (Genesis 46:34), who socioculturally emphasized different classes of lordship.
This well-rounded definition of poimen is significantly different from the narrow, corporate conceptualization of poimen. Specifically, acting as a poimen does not simply mean “feeding the believing community with weekly sermons,” “administrating ceremonial services,” and/or “officially approving the bureaucratic actions of ‘church’ offices.” To the contrary, one should not equivocate this gifted function with . . .
(1) the gifted preaching of a preacher (Romans 10:14 [Greek], 2 Peter 2:5 [Greek], see also Mark 1:7 [Greek], Mark 6:12 [Greek], Acts 8:5 [Greek], 1 Timothy 3:16 [Greek], etc.),
(2) the gifted administration of an administrative leader (1 Corinthians 12:28 [Greek], Romans 12:8 [Greek]), or
(3) the gifted teaching of a teacher (Romans 12:7 [Greek], Ephesians 4:11 [Greek]).
Moreover, all overseer elders are shepherds functionally (1 Peter 5:1-2 [Greek], Acts 20:17, 28 [Greek]), including overseer elders who do not speak or instruct regularly (1 Timothy 5:17 [Greek]). However, only Christ Jesus bears the official office of “Shepherd” (John 10:11-12, 14, 16, Hebrews 13:20, 1 Peter 2:25, Psalm 23:1, etc., cross ref. 1 Peter 5:4).
Hence, in light of the above, the hardcore churchgoers’ interpretation of Ephesians 4:11 relies on inserting semantical presuppositions into the text, while ignoring applicable Scriptural cross references. This illustrates the perils of interpreting Biblical Scripture through Creedalism or Traditionalism, as opposed to the sound hermeneutics of the Grammatical-Historical Interpretation.
With the above having been said, let us consider the issue of tithing. As a result of Christ Jesus’s sacrificial death, we are dead to Mosaic Law in Christ Jesus (Romans 7:1-6, Romans 8:3-4, see also Colossians 2:13-14, 16-17, Romans 10:4, Ephesians 2:15, Romans 6:15). As a result, citing Old Testament Scriptures, such as Malachi 3:6-12, Leviticus 27:30, and Matthew 23:23, to justify New Testament Law-keeping is backwards theology.
Now, let us consider your New Testament Scriptural prooftexting for compulsory New Testament tithing.
(1) You cited 2 Corinthians 9:7. However, 2 Corinthians 9:7 [Greek] teaches non–compulsory giving. As a result, your own Scriptural reference refutes your own position.
(2) You cited 1 Corinthians 16:1-4. However, nowhere does 1 Corinthians 16:1-4 state that monetary giving is compulsory.
Moreover, you interpret the phrase “on the first day of every week” (1 Corinthians 16:2) as meaning “on every Sunday.” This is understandable, as almost all English translations of this verse use the same phraseology (cross ref. NIV, NASB, and KJV).
However, the phrase “on the first day of every week” is an inaccurate translation. The Greek text of 1 Corinthians 16:2 says “in accordance with one Sabbath,” which is the last day of the Jewish week. Similar mistranslations are found in Matthew 28:1 (cross ref. Greek), Mark 16:2, 9 (cross ref. Greek), Luke 24:1 (cross ref. Greek), John 20:1, 19 (cross ref. Greek), and Acts 20:7 (cross ref. Greek).
Now, please address my original points within my first post. Otherwise, please admit that you have no answer.
LUCKYSRIKE
You will never be able to recieve the Revelation of the Position of Pastor in the New Teatament Church. I will just be the Pastor of Countryview Baptist Church that the Lord Jesus Christ called me to be on 1-7-1990 and you be whatever you want to be, we’ll see in the end at the judgment seat of Christ who is right and who is wrong. Your heart is filled with hate for all Pastors and Local Churches which have existed since Jesus Christ started the first on in Jerusalem some 2000 years ago. Look at all of the Local Churches in the world today, you say we are all wrong and you are right, what a stupid view of the local church you have and all of the godly Pastors who Pastor them. You are operating with the natural mind which cannot recieve the things of God. Listen to what the Word of God says about you, “But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” I Corinthians 2:14. Also
listen to what John says about you, “We are of God: he that knoweth God hearth us: he that is not of God hearth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error” I John 4:6. LUCKYSTRIKE what you think about me is worthless, and also you judgment of me is worthless, you have rejected what I have written from God’s Word and made light of it so you will answer
to the Lord for you error. Jesus Christ will judge me at the Judgment seat of Christ Romans 14:10 and 2 Corinthians 5:10. Your judgment won’t amount to a hill of beans in that day. My heart and conscious are very clear for what I have written about “Can the virtual church replace the physical church? I say
no not ever, because the physical. local church, is the one Jesus Christ Founded Matthew 16:18. The local church is all there was for some 2000 years, you need to read the book of Acts and just count the local churches that are mentioned, then read the rest of the New Testament and count them also. Do you think that Jesus Chrsit has done away with the local church? No never He said in Matthew 16:18, “And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock [His Divine Person] [ICor. 3:11 the only foundation] I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not previal against it.” The local church is made up of born again, blood washed children of God, which make up the body of Christ world wide, try to tell all the Pastors of these churches that they are all wrong, ha ha ha they would just laugh at you and that is what I am doing now!!! A man who Jesus Christ died for and Pastor of a local church. Countryview Baptist Church 1145 Amity Road Galloway, Ohio 43119. LUCKYSTRIKE I will keep you in prayer that you will get rid of your stinking thinking concerning local churches and the Pastors of those local churches.
Dr. Rudy Caldwell Ph.D. Countryview Baptist Church 1145 Amith Road Galloway, Ohio 43119 “Thankful Jesus loves me and died for my sins on the cross to save me, “a man who Jesus died for” Pastor Rudy Caldwell
Mr. Caldwell, your “non-answer” replies continue to validate my points. You are unable to defend your viewpoint, so you resort to ad hominem ranting, among other anti-intellectual rhetorical methodology.
Now, please address my original points within my first post. Otherwise, please admit that you have no answer.
Luckystrike
You are not a man of God or a Woman of God I am not going to play games with you on ourchurch.com. You are unteachable and all you want to do is argue the Word of God, until you start living it our interaction is over. All you
have is religion and you are a religious person who is void of the Holy Spirit
So go attack someone else who will put up with your crap, for myself I have
had enough of it. Dr. Rudy Caldwell Ph.D. 1145 Amith Road Galloway, Ohio
43119
Ah! According to Mr. Caldwell, I am usaved because I do not submit to his viewpoint. How deliciously manipulative.
Mr. Caldwell, I rest my case.
THE TRUTH ABOUT TITHING
TITHING WAS PRATICED 430 YEARS BEFORE THE LAW.
In Genesis 14:20 we read, “And blessed be the the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thine hand. And he [Abram] gave him tithes of all.”
This was the first example to paying tithes to God.
In Genesis 28:20-22 we read, “And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and rainment to put on, So that I come again to my father’s house in peace; than shall the LORD be my God: And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God’s house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surley give the tenth unto thee.”
TITHING UNDER THE LAW OF MOSES.
Commanded: Leviticus 27:30 says, “And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD’S: it is holy unto the LORD.”
Malachi 3:10 The Bible says, “Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse.”
It was for the Levites Numbers 18:21-24.
To supply God’s house: Malachi 3:10
To honor God: Proverbs 3:9-10 The Bible says, “Honour the LORD with thy substance, and with firstfruits of all thine increase: So shall thy barns be filled with plenty, and thy presses shall burst out with new wine.”
The tithe belongs to God and not the people: Lev. 27:30 and Malachi 3:8.
When a man does’t tithe he robs God of what belongs to Him.
TITHING IN THE NEW TESTAMENT
Christ taught tithing in the New Testament He says in Matthew 23:23
“Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.”
In Luke 11:42 Christ says, “But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not leave the other undone.”
The Apostle Paul taught tithing in Romans 2:22 he condemned sacrilege, which is the robbing of temples and God. Malachi 3:8-10
Tithing is proof of obedience and appreciation of God’s blessings. 2 Cor. 9:7 says, “Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.”
1 Timothy 6:17-18 says, charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy; That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate.”
Tithing came easy for me to do, when the Lord Jesus Christ saved me and came into my heart on 7-29-1973 which was on a Sunday, I went to church the next Sunday which was 8-5-1973 and began tithing on that Sunday and have been tithing and giving offerings to the Lord all those years. God has richly blessed me for being obediant to His Word in tithing. Galatians 6:7 says, “Be not deceived: God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.” God’s law is we must sow before we reap a harvest. A farmer must break up the fallow ground and sow his corn before he can expect a harvest. It is God who is the Lord of the harvest. Every church member who is a child of God is commanded to tithe on his increase that God blesses him with. God does not expect you to tithe is you are unsaved and lost, the first thing He wants you to do is to be willing to repent and believe on His Son the Lord Jesus Christ and then invite Jesus Christ into your heart to be your Lord and Savior. After you have been saved God wants you to find a Bible believing church and make a profession of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and submit yourself for believers baptism and join that church and serve God in that church. Fellowship with the believers in that church, grow in the Lord in that church for the glory of God and let your light shine for Christ’s Glory. Why did I write this message on tithing, this message is for believers who are not a member of any church and who do no tithe and give offerings to the Lord. Jesus said in Matthew while being tempted of the devil to turn the stones into bread, “It is written, man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.” The whole Bible is the Word of God so you cannot take out this part and that part to justify any reason why you do not tithe and bring an offering to the Lord in the church. If you are a child of God, and have no home church you need to find one and become a member of that church. The local church was the church that Jesus started in Jerusalem over 2000 years ago, and if you love Jesus with all of your heart then you ought to desire to be a member of the local church He started over 2000 years ago. TV , radio, tapes and books can never take the place of the fellowship that Christ wants you to have in the local church with other born again believers,
what are you waiting for go to church Sunday, you’ll be glad you did.
A man who Jesus Christ died for Dr. Rudy Caldwell Ph.D. 1145 Amity Road Galloway, Ohio 43119
LUCKYSTRICKE
You are unsaved because you do not submit to the Word of God as the final authority and I rest my case because of that Dr. Rudy Caldwell Pastor of Countryview Baptist Church 1145 Amith Road Galloway, Ohio 43119
Mr. Caldwell, you are erecting a red herring. The issue is not about submitting to the Word of God, but submitting to your interpretation of the Word of God.
For instance, you claim that Revelation 2-3 addresses “the seven pastors” of the seven churches. However, nowhere does the Book of Revelation define “the seven angels” as “the seven pastors.” To the contrary, your interpretation relies on inserting non-sequitur assumptions into the text.
Now, are you capable of confessing your error? I will not move beyond this point until you answer my question
LUCKEYSTRIKE
The greek word for angel is messenger [angelos] and the messenger of every local church is the Pastor, you need to get saved, give your heart to
the Lord Jesus Christ, then the Holy Spirit will reveal the truths that are found in the Word of God, My interpertations from the Word of God are truth whether you believe them of not, have you every taking any Bible courses or are you just interpting the Bible like you want it to mean what you want it to mean?
There has never been any error in any of my writings, because what I have written has come from the Word of God! You truly are as sad case, and need to get saved and learn the Bible before you try to teach someone else the interpution of any part of the Bible. A man who Jesus Christ died for to save.
Dr. Rudy Caldwell Ph.D Countryview Baptist Church 1145 Amity Road Galloway, Ohio 43119 By the way you will address me as Pastor Caldwell or Dr. Caldwell from now on, you have no respect for any one, get real man or woman or what ever you are, you operate in darkness hiding your name, are you afraid someone will recognize who you are and expose you for what you are?