A couple weeks ago I blogged about a study published by The Barna Group which found that while “more than seven out of ten Americans (72%) claim they have made a personal commitment to Jesus Christ that is important in their life today…” only 17% of adults said that “a person’s faith is meant to be developed mainly by involvement in a local church.”
That sparked some very strong opinions on both sides of the issue. On one hand we received comments like this: “I have been a non-church going Christian for over a year, and I can assure you that when it is done in the will of God, it is anything but a problem.” We also received comments from the opposing viewpoint: “I hear so many people defend not going to church. If you notice their defense is full of holes.”
Can the virtual church (online audio sermons, video services, Christian discussion groups, etc) replace the physical church?
Give us your opinion in this week’s poll and post your comments here.
In His Service,
Paul Steinbrueck
OurChurch.Com
65 Comments
Hello Kathryn
The Body of Christ is made up of local churches her on earth. The first church was assembled in the upper room awaiting the Baptism of he Holy Spirit Acts 1:8 Acts 1:13-14 says, “And when they were come in, they went up into the upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James. These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus and with his breathren.” Notice that the early church was all assembled together and had their first business meeting in Acts 1:15-26. Then in Acts 2:1-4 The promise of the Father took place Luke 24:49 “And behold I send the promise of the Father upon you [Acts 1:8] but tarry ye in Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power on high.”
#1. The early church was assembled together as the body of Christ at Jerusalem Acts 1:13-14. A visible, local, body of believers. Not and invisible body that you say you belong to. The Body of Christ is made up of local churches her on earth and the Virtual church can never take the place of the Physical, local church!!! All 120 were together Acts 1:15.
#2. How can the Virtual church have a monthly business meeting like we do at Countryview Baptist Church and like the early church that was assembled together in Acts 1:13-26.
#3 When was the last time you were in a local assembly of a body of born again believers?
#4. When was the last time you were in a business meeting with a local body of born again believers?
All local assemblies of all born again believers will be assembled together when the rapture takes place in one place, with Christ. I Corinthians 15:51-58 I Thessalonians 4:13-5:11 John 14:1-6 Hope to see you there. Dr. Rudy Caldwell Pastor of Countryview Baptist Church
Religion of man will keep you bound to a structure. The kingdom of God that is within will take you to the world. i.e. neighborhood, city, state, nation and nations. Religion of America, mans Babylonian doctrine which builds around self, pride and arrogance has been destroying her. We have culturalized the gospel according to America! Not the gospel according to Christ, which is `this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world as a witness.’ and `go you therefore and make disciples’ and `go ye therefore and disciple all nations.’
The Pharisees were riled at Jesus’ message of the gospel of the kingdom and His demonstration thereof, seeing they saw not, hearing they heard not.
They held tightly to that which they THOUGHT they knew to be truth, to their utter destruction. Through out the scriptures He is found, but they held to the letter instead. As someone else brought out to me, can covenant Agar say to covenant Sarah, I am the free? Sarah, whom was barren, Agar whose chidren were many(the religious) of this day. But from Sarah’s womb did comeforth the Promise, that she that did not bear, sings. The Agar’s of today will always try and tantalize the Sarah’s. But unto the her( the church, the Israel of God, the Body of Christ) is given Truth and knowing the Truth, makes free.
We must be seekers of Truth, which is He Himself, and be willing to lay down all our doctrine, all what we have thought to be light and was not and seek Him with our whole heart, First, Foremost above and beyond any and everything. When we do, He says, you will find Me. He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him…not seeking doctrine, theology or eschatology…seek HIM and He will be found. Then will you know the Truth and the Truth will make free.
Thank you, Kathryn, for your wonderful attitude and comments in this blog-you are free indeed, praise the LORD.
We have written some similar comments at https://blog.ourchurch.com/2006/05/19/christian-communications-make-headlines/ trying to encourage folks to think of the word “church” in a different way, as we believe God has taught us to do. We invite you, and any other reader, to visit this OCC blog, also.
God has given us much more on this topic, and we have written an essay at His web site, Harvest Ministry, called “Are You Going to Church?” at http://www.harvestministry.us/view/?pageID=236403
May God give you the eyes to see Him and the ears to hear His call to intimacy through His Holy Spirit. May the blessings of God’s peace rest upon you as you ponder in your heart and mind what the Holy Spirit is saying to His Church today.
Blessings Jerry and Lenore,
I will check out your site. He is the glory, He is the Fullness. My prayer for you, Be filled, fully clothed in Fullness, spirit, soul, bodily, which is He Himself that the knowledge of His glory fill the earth as the waters cover the seas. We have His word, that indeed this will be so. Hab.2:14 Glory to God!
Greetings in the name of Christ Jesus. I wish to provide a rebuttal.
Hardcore churchgoer: “You should go to church . . . “
Translation [including hidden semantics]:
“You should go to my ‘church.’ I want to fellowship with you, but only under my terms.”
How do different believers with different “church homes” engage in fellowship? “Church” attendance, in and of itself, is a dividing factor. Conversations between believers usually start with questions about each person’s denominational or sectarian affiliations, which usually induces social alienation. Different “churches” demand loyalty to their “church,” under many contexts, otherwise you are classified as “a permanent guest.” I could continue . . .
However, edifying fellowship can occur anywhere, at any time, with any other believer. We should not restrict our fellowship by redefining our fellowship as scheduled institutional meetings (ref. 1 Corinthians 3:1-7, 1 Corinthians 1:10-17).
Hardcore churchgoer: “There is no perfect church.”
So? Lacking the capacity for perfection does not excuse local “churches” from reasonable expectations. In most cases, this argument comes across as an attempt to blame the individual for any and all negative experiences at local “churches.”
Hardcore churchgoer: “It appears as though your negative experiences cloud your judgment.”
This is a “double-edged” argument. In many cases, one’s opinion about a situation depends on one’s perspective within the situation, as illustrated by this article. For instance, why would the “who’s who” of a “church” complain about cold and uppity church members?
Hardcore churchgoer: “Hebrews 10:25 says, ‘Do not forsake assembly.’ This verse is a Scriptural command to attend church. “
Hold on a second. How do you get “go to church” out of “do not forsake assembly”? In Hebrews 10:25, the Greek word for “assembly” is episunagoge (Strong’s #1997) (ref. Hebrews 10:25 [Greek]), which could refer to “gathering together” in any shape or size, as opposed to geographical or institutional gatherings proper (cross ref. Matthew 18:20).
Now, how does one define “church,” as in the “local assembly”? This question represents the core issue. For instance:
1) Where does the New Testament endorse the “clergy-laity” or “corporate” models of assembly, especially in light of 1 Peter 2:4-9, 1 Corinthians 14:26-33, Colossians 3:15-16, Romans 12:4-8, and 1 Corinthians 12:4-31?
2) Where does the New Testament endorse any hierarchical “church structure,” such as the central authority of “pastor”? Is the lordship of elders not forbidden by Scripture (1 Peter 5:1-3, Matthew 20:25-28), since Christ Jesus is the head of every man (1 Corinthians 11:3)?
Yet, many individuals, like “Dr. Rudy Caldwell Ph.D.,” are prideful because they possess positions of authority. I find such pride to be offensive.
3) Why do mainstream churches treat church buildings as temples of God, or “God’s house”? God does not indwell man-made temples (Acts 17:24).
As others have pointed out repeatedly: The phrase “go to church” is misleading, for all believers compose the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:13, 27, Romans 12:5, 1 Corinthians 10:17), which is the Church (Ephesians 5:22-33, Colossians 1:18, 24, Ephesians 1:22-23). So, if I “go to church,” then do I “go to myself”? 🙂
Just some food for thought, as inspired by 1 Thessalonians 5:21 . . .
Rebuttial To LUCKYSTRIKE Since you are not man enough to sign your name!!!
No doubt you are a LONE RANGER Religionist who revels in his pride about not
attending a local church, no doubt you have no membership in any church, do not support any local church and rob God of His Tithes and Offerings, and refuse to fellowship with other Christians in a local church. My position as a Pastor of a local church was odained by Jesus Christ as Head of the church. Ephesians 4:11-16. Jesus Christ is the Head of the church. Paul warns us about men like you in Acts 20:28 “Take head therefore unto yourselves, [Pastors] and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.” Jesus Christ is the Head of Countryview Baptist Church 1145 Amith Road Galloway, Ohio 43119. The Holy Ghost has appointed and called me to be the overseerer of this body of belivers who Jesus Christ purchased with his own blood. This authoruty that God has given me is under his authority, and His Word is the final authority whether you like it or not!!! Thank God all believers are not like you!!! Who attend a local church every week, where the Word of God is taught and preached with power and authority, with the Holy Spirit bearing withness by blessing those who attend, are saved, baptised and added to the church of the Living God weekly. How many people have you lead to the Lord in your lifetime? or do you just use you time running down Pastors who stand upon God’s Word and teach it and preach like it is fount in God’s Holy Word. A word of advice to you LUCKYSTRIKE you need to start living the Word of God instead of wanting to argue about what it teaches the born again believer in his walk with the living God, The Lord Jesus Christ. One other thing before I close you will not have the last say concering me as a Pastor, Jesus Christ My Blessed Lord and Savior will have the last asay concerning me at the Judgment Seat of Christ Romans 14:10 2 Corinthians 5:10 . A man who Jesus Christ died for Dr Rudy Caldwell Ph.D. Pastor of a Great Local Church 1145 Amity Road Galloway, Ohio 43119 and yes Jesus Christ is the Head of this local body of born again, blood washed, Spirit filled, Children of God. Praise The Lord
Greetings in the name of Christ Jesus, Mr. Caldwell.
Your reply did not address my points. To the contrary, your reply offered nothing, except fallacious ad hominem ranting. In fact, your presumptuous reply validates my opposition to “church” attendance.
The spiritual man judges all things (1 Corinthians 2:15), which requires the testing of all things (1 Thessalonians 5:21). This prerogative includes the righteous judgment of fellow believers (1 Corinthians 5:12). Hence, your conduct as an elder is not immune to all judgment except Christ Jesus’s personal judgment.
All elders must be worthy of respect (1 Timothy 3:2, 8, 11 [Greek], Titus 2:2 [Greek]). Overseer elders, in particular, must not be quick-tempered or combative (Titus 1:7 [Greek]), caught up in pride (1 Timothy 3:6 [Greek]), or pursuers of lordship (1 Peter 5:3 [Greek]). To the contrary, overseer elders must possess self-control or temperateness (1 Timothy 3:2 [Greek], Titus 1:8 [Greek]), as an example to others (1 Peter 5:3). However, in contrast, you engage in ad hominem rants, boast about your “pastoral authority” over others, and frequent anti-intellectual rhetoric, such as traditionalist demagoguery. Hence, you are unworthy of respect as an elder, according to Biblical Scripture.
Moreover, why are you repeatedly advertising your “church” during this theological debate? Are you present as a Biblical teacher or a denominational recruiter? It appears as though your advocacy represents a conflict of interest.
With the above material having been said, I noticed that you implicitly view monetary tithing as a New Testament requirement. However, nowhere does New Testament Scripture require any monetary tithes.
Now, please address my original points within my first post. Otherwise, please admit that you have no answer.
Luckystrike The Bible Teaches tithing not only in the old testament but also in the New Testament as well. Here are the scriptures: By the way tithing is done in the Local visible church that Jesus Christ started in Matthew after his temption in Matthew 4:1-16 in verse 17 “From that time Jesus beging to preach, and and to say” Repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. And Jesus walking by the sea of Galilee, saw two brethern, Simon called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea: for they were fishers. And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of me.” Malachi 3:6-12 teaches tithing in the old testament and it also teaches tithing for new testament christians. “For I am the Lord, I change not: therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed. Even the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return? Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In thithes and offerings. Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation. Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to recieve it. vs 11 gives us the rewards of tithing: #1. Meat in God’s House, no lack of means or money to carry out His work. #2. Opening of the windows of heaven to pour out a blessing so great that there will not be room enough to recieve it. #3. Rebuke the devourer so that he will not destroy the crops. #4. Recogination of God’s blessing by all men. When we don’t bring our tithes and offerings into the local church we are a member of #1. We rob God. #2 We rob our church. #3 We rob ourselves and miss out on the blessings the LORD promises in Malachi 3:11. Leviticus 27:30 says, The tithe if the LORD’S: it is holy unto the LORD. The tithe has always been 10% of our income and always will be until the church is raptured into heaven. In Hebrews 7:1-2 “For this Melchisedec king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him; To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is King of peace.” Jesus said in Matthew 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weighter matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought to have done, and not to leave the other undone.” The Apostle Paul taught tithing upon the first day of the week and it was to be brought to the local church. “Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches [not an individual] of Galatia, even so do ye. Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come. 2 Corinthians 9:7 says, “Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.” I could give you many more verses that teach tithing in the Old and New Testamant, but I feel these are enough to teach tithing, in the local church. You won’t want to miss my next writing about “Why shoud I be a member of a local church, why should I support the chruch I am a member of with tithes and offering, and with the God given gifts we recieve when we are born again, which are given by The Holy Spirit in I Corinthains 12:1-31. LUCKYSTRIKE Everything I teach and have taught in my writings have been documented with scripture from God’s Word so people who know the truth about what I am teaching comes from God’s Word and God’s Word says, in Romans 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; Your arugment about my teaching is with God and His Word. I do sign all of my writing with Dr. Rudy Caldwell Ph.D. Pastor of Countryview Baptist Church 1145 Amith Road Galloway, Ohio 43113 . I do this so people will know where I am coming from and know who I am. I don’t hid behind a name like you have, and writings that are full of holes that don’t hold water. By the way, I don’t need your respect because it is worthless. Only what God thinks about me has any worth now and all eternity. I am a Pastor and Teacher by the Lord Jesus Christ’s calling Ephesians 4:11. I don’t mention Denomination because those tags are going to fall off going up and burn off going down. Since you mentioned denomination I am a Southern Baptist and our church is in the Metro Columbus Baptist Association and the State Convention of Baptist in Ohio also the National Southern Baptist Convention. I stay with God’s Word and document every thing I write from God’s Word Book-Chapter and Verse. By the way why don’t you check out my web site about my conversion, calling, sealing, saving, and anointing of the Holy Spirit, and my love for Jesus Christ my Blessed Savior and Lord. Also LUCKYSTRIKE my love for all mankind which included you, Bye for now until the next time Dr. Rudy Caldwell: Pastor of Countryview Baptist Church Web Site http://www.ourchurch.com/member/c/CountryviewBC7
Hello Kathryn
Just wanted to say hello and hope you are doing just great. I would like to see you in church some Sunday morning with a lot of you friends, I really enjoyed our interactions on ourchurch.com. Please check out our church web
site. Bye for now Pastor Rudy Caldwell
Web Site address http://www.ourchurch.com/member/c/CountryviewBC7
Hello Dr. Rudy and Lucky and all,
I haven’t visited this blog for awhile, until today.
One thing, if we have ears to hear..we are moving by Holy Spirit from a church age too kingdom age. In the kingdom of God, that is within and to be establsihed on earth as it is in heaven..hence, Jesus teaching the disciples to pray..Thy kingdom, come(means: Appear), Thy will be done, ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN.
I’m only going to share up too a point. In the kingdom of God, we are not required to pay 10% of tithe. We are required 100% of our all. In other words, we are not under a law instituted later, but under the law of Love. Which is: Love the Lord your God with ALL your heart, soul, mind and strength and Love your NEIGHBOR as yourself. All the law and the prophets are fulfilled in these two commandments. So all things, spirit, soul, body, finances, etc. belong to God..we are no longer our own, we have been bought with a price, the blood of Jesus, which speaks better things than that of Abel.
We are now led of Holy Spirit, Who is God, dwelling in man and we have committed our ALL to Him. So when He says, give such and such, we hear and obey because we Love Him, Who first Loved us. It’s all His…the earth is the Lords and the Fullness thereof. It’s intimate RELATIONSHIP in Him, of Him, by Him, through Him, not religion. It’s righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. That’s the kingdom of God and we are too( as His body in the earth) to establish His kingdom on earth, AS IT IS IN HEAVEN.
I shared this with someone, think it appropriate here…..truly the Love of God, that has been shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit. Love forgives. Offenses will come but Love takes no account. Love blesses those that do so. Love crucifies the flesh. It’s painful for the flesh, but from the heart Love rises up, which is He Himself, and causes us to triumph, overcome. Each day, we choose to yield to Love. Some days, there is occassion or many occassion and some days turns into months and years,of opposition and great opposition. Our choosing to Love and bless and curse not( WHICH AFFECTS EVERYTHING IN LIFE, if we have ears to hear this) is what I believe with my whole heart, when all said and done, He will say..well done, my good and faithful servant.
I’ll check out your site Dr. Rudy and if He made, makes a way for me, I would enjoy visiting you sometime. You know how I think now in this regard, having the mind of Christ… we are BEING the church aka.: ekklesia: called out ones. The Body of Christ ..His Love flowing from joint to joint, maturing the body in His Fullness…Love. Love is the completion, the wholeness. As a dear brother always says and as it is written…Pursue Love, it never fails.
Blessings,