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MORMON DISCUSSION
ON THIS PAGE
Discussion on Mormons #1
Discussion on Mormons #2
Discussion on Mormons #3
Discussion on Mormons #4
Discussion on Mormons #5
Discussion on Mormons #6
Discussion on Mormons #7
Discussion on Mormons #8
Discussion on Mormons #9
Discussion on Mormons #10
I AM WORKING ON THIS PAGE AT THE PRESENT
Wed Oct 17, 2001 12:08 am
Subject:
Discussion on Mormons #1
I became involved in a discussion concerning Mormons, to which I responded.
Well, it appears that you and I both agree with the Bible concerning God not excluding anyone from His offer of salvation.
He is "...not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." The Bible also says that He wants all to come to the knowledge of the truth. God makes His love, grace and mercy available but it is only active where people choose to "believe" the truth. Jesus said that we should ..."know the truth and the truth would set us free", conversely, if we believe a lie, we will live a lie, if we live a lie, we will die a lie and if we die a lie, we will go to hell.
___, I am not the only one who says that Mormons are not Bible believing Christans. That is the position of LDS. They admit that the Bible is right only as it is interpreted by them. Whereas, a Bible believing Christian says that the Bible is right, regardless of anyone's interpretation. If the Bible makes a clear and absolute declaration about a subject and anyone contradicts that declaration, then that person is not a Bible believing Christian.
The fact is that the Bible clearly says that there is ONLY ONE GOD, whereas the LDS clearly teaches that there are and will be many gods. The Bible clearly teaches that God has always been God and that there was no God before Him. LDS teaches that God became God and before God there was another God who had become God.
Exactly what is it that you don't agree with me on concerning the "God the Father thing"? I really do care about our difference. For me to say that the Mormons are not Bible believing is not a personal attack, but a well known and accepted fact. People can be Mormon or they can believe the Bible, but since these two positions are opposed to each other, you cannot be both.
Thank you for responding to my post. I do enjoy sharing and discussing with folks who are genuinely interested in a reasonable discussion.
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Wed Oct 17, 2001 12:13 am
Subject:
Discussion on Mormons #2
I was told that Mormons are Bible believing Christians, to which I responded.
_____, what we must understand is that most of what people claim to be a difference of interpretation of the Bible is not that at all. It is a matter of either accepting what God says or changing what God says. When God says in the Bible says,
"Ye are my witesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: BEFORE ME THERE WAS NO GOD FORMED, NEITHER SHALL THERE BE ANY AFTER ME. I, even I, am the LORD and beside me there is no saviour..." (Is. 43:10-11)
And
"...I am the first, and I am the last; and BESIDE ME THERE IS NOT GOD. And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them. Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. IS THERE A GOD BESIDE ME? YEA, THERE IS NO GOD; I KNOW NOT ANY." (Is.44:7-8)
And
"I am the LORD, and THERE IS NONE ELSE, THERE IS NO GOD BESIDE ME: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else." (Is. 45:5-6)
There is nothing to interpret in these passages and many many more like them. We either accept that there is absolutely ONE and ONLY ONE God as all of the Bible clearly declares or we don't believe the Bible. There are many issues where the LDS refutes the clear teaching of Scripture. These are not interpretation problems, they are faith and obedience problems. Either the Bible is right, and God said what He meant and He said it clearly or He didn't and we needed someone to come along and straighten out the mess that the Bible is in.
As for me, I not only believe the Bible is true, I know that it does not need me or any other man to correct it. That is why a person can either be a Bible believer or a Mormon, but not both at the same time.
____, how long have you been studying with the LDS? I know that they do not always tell their new people everything that they believe, because they know that most people would see the errors of LDS and would stop studying. They lead a person along until they are willing to discount the Bible as the true and accurate Word of God.
We are not discussing personal opinions or interpretations here, we are discussing the Eternal and Unchanging Word of God.
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Wed Oct 17, 2001 12:18 am
Subject:
Discussion on Mormons #3
Someone tried to point out that the transmission of the Bible is no more reliable than the passing of a message through the children's game called "Telephone", to which I responded.
If your question is simply have I ever played the parlor game, "Telephone", the answer is "Yes." If you are drawing a parallel between that game and the transmission of the Bible then you are only one of millions who have not studied, either the Bible itself or the exacting care with which it has been communicated from generation to generation and from language to language. The transmission
of the Bible was more exacting and reliable and has more evidences which support the accuracy of this work than any other work of literature in the world. This is not my opinion but that of many scholars (both Christian and non-Christian). The issue of the accuracy of Bible transmission is not where knowledgeable people differ, but rather it comes back to something I said earlier, it is a matter of faith and obedience to the Bible record.
If your question is, "How can we know that the Bible is correctly translated and communicated", then that is a very good question. There are many well written and scholarly books available for anyone who has an honest interest. There are other questions which honest seekers run into with the Bible, but the issues of "authenticity, genuineness and accuracy" are all dealt with and answered with some thoughtful study. But even if the Bible could be proved to everyone's satisfaction, not all would accept it because...it comes back to a matter of faith. But remember, I am not speaking of a "blind faith which leaps in the dark", but rather an "enlightened faith which steps from light to light."
I am really not a hard hearted person, but when it comes to the Word of God, I have studied enough of both sides to be hard headed. I never want to offend anyone, but I cannot but speak boldly about the things I have come to know about the Bible through Jesus Christ and His Holy Spirit.
Remember, the Bible is not just a compilation of literary works, it is the self proclaimed revelation of God. In studying the Bible, I have come to accept it for what it claims to be. But I am not alone; there are millions of others who have found it to be true and many of those who have trusted it are much more educated than most of us and are among the most intellectual minds which have ever lived.
Thanks for asking.
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Wed Oct 17, 2001 12:23 am
Subject:
Discussion on Mormons #4
A Mormon stated that there is more than one God and confused the issue of the Tri-Unity of God with polytheism, to which I responded.
_____, after reading the Mormon response, we are stuck with the same problem with which we started. The issue is not whether there is one God in the three Persons of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The Bible is consistent and clear in it's teaching about these three Persons being the one, same God. The issue is whether there is any other God other than the One God Who has revealed Himself as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The Bible teaches that there is only one God and that no man will become God. "God is the same yesterday, today and forever, He changes not." The writings which you offer are interesting, but they do not answer why Mormonism is in contradiction to the Bible and Bible believing Christianity on the issue of a multiplicity of Gods. We can either accept non-answers or we can demand answers to these questions.
As to the importance of the issue, if the Bible is in error concerning the nature of God, then it might be in error concerning other areas of interest. Likewise, if Mormonism is not in agreement with the teaching of the Bible concerning the Oneness of God, then it is probably in disagreement concerning salvation. After all, if there is a difference in the God of the Bible and the god of Mormonism, then we need to find out which God is the true God. This is my point, a person can either be a believer in the Bible or they can be a follower of any religion they choose, including Mormonism.
Remember too, the founder of the Mormon religion said that all other religions were false and that there was no true church on the earth until the Mormons came along.
I commend you for taking the time to search out the Mormon answer. I hope you will be as eager to see if the Bible is the only revealed Word of God.
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Wed Oct 17, 2001 12:32 am
Subject:
Discussion on Mormons #5
A Mormon told me how they had found some satisfaction through the LDS, to which I responded.
I understand how you have found something that is satisfying in the Mormon religion. My concern is that you will settle for the simple answers which don't answer the deepest and most important question which we need to be asking. The Bible says that "there is a way which seems right to a man, but the end thereof is the way of death." The Bible also says that there are false prophets which will lead people astray. The only way something can lead people astray is if it is appealing to them. There is no such thing as the "restored gospel." It was never lost. God's Word is found in the Bible, not in the Book of Mormon, Doctrines and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price. It is not found in the contradictory teachings of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. It is not found through the so-called Urim and Thummim of Joseph Smith. It is not found in the teachings of Mormonism's "living prophets." It is in the BIBLE. The answer is in Jesus Christ, not any other man. The answer is in the one, true and living God and all other gods are gods of our own making. I hope we can continue to share, ____. I must be getting ready of our Bible study now. Thanks for the input.
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A Mormon told me that there are some commendable points in Mormonism and therefore that should justify their doctrines, to which I responded.
There are women of all kinds of religious and moral backgrounds who are lost because they believe in a false religion and a false god. A person can only be saved if they believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, not if they are a good mother or hold motherhood in high esteem. You see, you and I can't even discuss the differences or the fallacies of Mormonism as long as you are justifying it's
false doctrines by human yardsticks. The only valid measuring stick is the Bible. It is God's Word, without error and without peer.
I am sorry that you have been duped by a religion which has denied the Bible as the only and Holy Word of God. I am sorry that you have chosen a religion which has changed it's message through the years to accommodate government and social pressures. I am sorry that you would rather cling blindly to a false gospel and which denies the Personhood of the Holy Spirit. I am sorry that you have fallen for one of the most absurd cults of modern times. I am sorry that you would rather be led astray than use your mind to investigate to see if the Bible is true and if Mormonism is wrong.
You see, you weren't even willing to have an intelligent discussion, but rather you chose to blindly defend that which you don't even understand. Though there are those who would try to examine both the Scriptures and Mormonism with you, you just laugh it off and allow false prophets to mislead you. I had hoped for better from you, but I was disappointed. You should move to Utah. You will fit in with all of those who call themselves elders and missionaries. They spout off the company propaganda without actually being honest also. I tried to be open and honest and I was willing to study with you, but all you can do is make snide and derogatory statements. At least be honest, you don't believe the Bible and you don't even want to know what it actually says, because that would point out the error of Mormonism. And yes, TO QUOTE YOU, you are "...a Polytheistic, false God worshipping, brainwashing, false prophet following, Bible disbelieving, heretical, prideful cult. Did I leave anything out?"
Yes, you did leave something out. You are lost in sin and you need Jesus just like all others who have been born into this world.
Unhappily it is your pride which will keep you from a true investigation of the Bible and cause you to reject those who reach out to you in love.
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Wed Oct 17, 2001 8:45 am
Subject:
Discussion on Mormons #6
I was asked which Bible I use, to which I responded.
Although I don't get answers to my legitimate questions, I don't mind trying to answer reasonable questions, even when they are asked in an unreasonable way. The following questions are reasonable, though it is obvious they were asked in a defiant manner and probably were asked rhetorically.
Mormon question...
"By the way, which Bible do you get your ABSOLUTE TRUTH? - the NIV ? or the KJV?"
Obviously this is a question asked in the absence of any knowledge about the history of the Bible, linguistics and translations. As far as the ABSOLUTE TRUTH as transmitted to us in written form, that is only found in the AUTOGRAPHS (the original writings of the Bible books), but we do not have the autographs. We do have thousands of copies of the originals and we have so much overwhelming evidence that we can confidently assert what the originals said. Whenever there are discrepancies in the various copies or translations, they are of no significance to the understanding of the text. For instance, one may hear that there are thousands of mistakes in the copies. What that means is, if one copy left out a letter from a word and then hundreds or thousands of other copies were made from that one copy, the same error is counted for each of the copies. But again, those mistakes are fairly easy to discover and therefore the original text is able to be established. There are so many manuscripts and copies that finding the original meaning is not impossible. Even in the areas where there are differences, the differences are never of such a magnitude as to throw doubt on the clear and established doctrines of historic Christianity or Bible documentation.
Therefore my answer (as to which of the translations I use), I use various translations and I go to the various scholars in the original languages as well. Remember, the Scriptures were written in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek and they have been translated into many languages. There are many scholars who have dedicated their lives to the study of what God had to say to us in the Bible and I study to show myself approved to God, so that I will not be ashamed as His servant. I will then know how to rightly understand His Word.
You further ask,
"Or the Jefferson Bible? How about The Woman's Bible, by Elizabeth Cadys Stanton? (my favorite, because it leaves out all the patriarchal crap)."
(I wonder why I don't think you are sincere in your inquiry?) But I will answer the question anyway.
I study Bibles which are legitimate translations. Works like those you have mentioned are not considered serious translations by anyone who understands the languages from which the Bible is translated. Works like an "Ebonics" Bible may be interesting, but it is not a legitimate translation. For instance, you do not like the fact that the Bible actually does refer to God in the masculine gender, but whether you like it or not, that is what the original languages did.
You see, this is your problem. It isn't that the message of the Bible is hard to understand or discover, it is rather that you don't like the message of the Bible. You want the Bible to agree with your own interpretation of life and you attack the Bible because it requires you to line up with it if you want to know and please God.
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Wed Oct 17, 2001 8:54 am
Subject:
Discussion on Mormons #7
Someone accused Christians of being intolerant and another refuted that accusation, to which I responded.
I agree with your observation. As a matter of fact, as believers in Christ, we have an obligation to be honest and true when the opportunity arises, which means we are often in the uncomfortable position of appearing to be intolerant to those who actually are intolerant of the Bible and Christian values. There is nobody more tolerant than Bible believers, since they take after their Father Who is tolerant to the MAX. His tolerance is called "longsuffering." Disagreeing with someone and taking a stand for truth is not intolerance. Though there are those who claim to be followers of Jesus, they prove that they are not when they go forward to kill any and all who disagree with them (as in the Crusades or as is the normal practice of those who follow the Koran). The Gospel of Jesus is the Gospel of Peace. Now is the time of tolerance, but also the time of proclamation. If people will not bow and confess Jesus now, they will in the future. Now we can do it with a free and willing mind, in the future it will be because people have come to the rude awakening that they have neglected and rejected the True and Living God, Jesus Christ.
Along with your observation, it is also true that the Bible is the infallible and inerrant Word of God, whether or not people accept It as such. Since the Bible clearly points out certain "fallacies", it is not a sign of intolerance to proclaim the Bible to those who either don't know It or don't believe It.
Just because Christians tell the truth to those in darkness is no reason to attack the Christian who is only trying to be helpful. Just because other beliefs do not hold up under pressure and investigation does not mean the Bible does not.
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Wed Oct 17, 2001 8:59 am
Subject:
Discussion on Mormons #8
In the discussion, many pertinent facts were offered to prove the Bible position to which the unbelievers would simply attack our motive or character, however, I was getting very little support, to which I responded.
It is obvious that another difference between Bible believing Christians and others is that those who accept the truth of God in terms of His Son and the salvation bought with His blood, are willing to have an intelligent discussion and the others just like to shoot off their mouths (or in this case, their keyboards). It doesn't matter how much evidence and proof is offered to the "gainsayers", they will not accept the truth. What amazes me is how far reaching their ignorance is. It seems that their is nothing about which they are not mis-informed. But then again, that makes sense. If you reject the truth of God concerning His love, mercy, justice and revelation as given in His eternal Word, why should you challenge your mind with facts concerning other subjects or disciplines.
I find it interesting that those who are Bible believers keep offering facts and documentation, while the "skeptics" offer nothing but empty jangling. However, it is not without purpose. These who refuse to accept truth are actually doing all they can to waste the time and space of this club and interfere with those who are sincere and honest seekers of truth. If this were to continue, maybe this club should be re-named, "The Cultic Witness to the Christians." I have no problem with discussions which are going somewhere and are glorifying to God, but I have real questions about giving those who are blatant enemies of the cross, a forum to undermine the faith of young Christians who are seeking truth. I have no question that I would be dropped from clubs because of my unyielding commitment to truth. Sometimes it is appropriate to "shake the dust from our feet" and move on. There are plenty of opportunities for those who attack the truth, why should they monopolize a Christian club which is trying to win the lost and build up the young in the faith?
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Wed Oct 17, 2001 9:03 am
Subject:
Discussion on Mormons #9
Someone asked why polygamy is wrong if it was practiced in the Bible, to which I responded.
First we must remember that Old Testament practices do not necessarily reflect God's plan for mankind. Often the practices were in line with Old Testament approval, but do not meet with God's plan and expectations for the New Testament people (including us). But often there were practices in the Old Testament which were not even acceptable to God in those days. The fact that there were those who practiced polygamy in the Old Testament is not an indication that God approved. In the beginning God set forth the ground rules for marriage. One man, for one woman, for one lifetime becoming one flesh, "For this cause shall a man leave his mother and father and cleave to his wife and they two shall become one flesh." God said what He meant and He meant what He said. He stipulated that marriage was a union between one man and one woman and they two shall become one flesh. We can attempt to add to this or take away from this, but it will not change what God actually said. As a matter of fact, God condemns the practice of polygamy and though some men did take more than one wife, it was not approved by God, even in the Old Testament. As with some other practices, God condemned it, but showed mercy even to those who disobeyed Him. When the God-approved relationship of marraige was spoken of by God in the Old Testament, it was in a monogamous setting. Though Abraham took Hagar as his wife or concubine, it was neither God's command nor with God's approval. It was Sarai's idea and Abraham's half hearted agreement (he knew better). He was wrong and it brought Abraham, Isaac, the nation of Israel and all of humanity more grief than we can comprehend. When we see the kings of Israel (David and Solomon) take more than one wife, it was in disobedience to God's command (Deut.17:17). Remember, man's wicked practices does not mean God's approval.
In the New Testament, God stands by His original plan and Jesus speaks in terms of one man with one woman becoming one flesh, for one lifetime. We can try to change or corrupt what He said, if we choose, but that will not change what He actually said. If we are interested in a corruption of God's Word, we can get that from the cults, but if we want what God actually said, we must stay with the Holy Bible.
In Paul's writings we are told that those in leadership of the church are to have only one wife. This is not a double standard set for leaders and others. The standard has always been one man with one woman becoming one flesh for one lifetime, but since societal practice allowed for polygamy, there were many who came to salvation and became part of the Church who had more than one wife. It was a pagan practice, not a Christian practice. God still only allowed monogamy, and restricted the leadership of the Church to those who followed His plan. He requires all believers to follow His plan, but He sets the standard in His leaders (I Ti.3:2,12 and Titus 1:6). The wicked and rebellious practices of the pagans should not be accepted as the standard of practice for those who follow Christ. Nor is it a joking matter to think about doing that which God condemns. The practice of polygamy for men and women is not funny any more than the practice of homosexuality or child molesting or beastiality. Certainly you would not think that Jesus would lightly treat disobedience to God's laws, and even if you do think so, He would not. This is part of what is meant when we are told to bring every thought captive to the obedience of Christ." There is room for joking, but not for "filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks." (Eph.5:4)
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Wed Oct 17, 2001 9:07 am
Subject:
Discussion on Mormons #10
Since the issue of polygamy was brought up by another, I decided to post this info.
Try this on for a strange suit.
In one of the "inspired" writings of LDS, God supposedly told Joseph Smith that all Mormons must observe the "ETERNAL COVENANT" which required all men to practice polygamy or suffer God's judgment. The practice of polygamy was binding and eternal, yet it was not only rescinded when the U.S. Government condemned and outlawed the practice (whatever happened to the "eternal covenant"), it was actually removed from the "inspired" Doctrines and Covenants. That would be the same as removing a portion of the Bible, simply because it was not approved by the government or society.
I will have to look up the references to this information, but it is not just hear-say, I have seen it with my own eyes and it has been admitted by Mormons when they know that they have no other recourse. The "inspired" writings of the LDS would be a joke if it was not for their damning impact on the poor misled souls who follow the false prophets of Salt Lake City.
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