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PAGE 28 DISCUSSION ON CHRISTIAN NONVIOLENCE
Response from "C"
Teacher
Dec 03, 2002 7:18:25 pm
Well, I know you're going to accuse me of ganging up on you, too; but I have to note that once again, it seems that you are taking a Scripture out of context. The passage in Hebrews appears to be talking about maintaining peace within the body of believers, so that no one is led astray. To apply it to a believer's non-involvement in military action reads too much into the text.
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Response from promiselander
Dec 03, 2002 9:09:22 pm
Bro. L, glad you made it back.
You said,
quote:
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Using the evilness of the state to argue as to why we shouldn't obey it is rather a weak argument.
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I am saying that the wickedness of the State is no excuse for Christians to disobey God.
Bro. C, I am glad to see you again. Actually, I don't have a problem when someone or several someones, disagree(s) with me. That goes with the territory. My complaint has been that when others could have stood with me on some issue, they didn't. Not for my sake but for the help of others who won't listen to me and might listen to y'all. There have been times in here when it would have been good for us to speak out on the things about which we agree, so as to help those who might need some help in a given area. But then again, maybe I am wrong in thinking that we would agree on some of these areas. Or maybe no one agrees with me that we should use this forum to help each other.
I realize that there are passages which do refer to the unity and peace between believers. But there are also verses which call us to pursue peace with others and the context makes it clear that those we are to seek peace with are our enemies.
In this passage the writer starts the section talking about Jesus enduring conflicts with sinners and encourages us to not faint under similar trials. He goes on to point out that we have not yet resisted unto blood, which is generally agreed to mean, martydom. I have no problem at all believing that the writer is wanting us to seek to live peaceably with our enemy and our persecutor. I believe it is within the context.
I don't see anything in the context which leads me to believe that it is speaking solely about "maintaining peace within the body of believers." I agree, it includes this aspect since the Greek word means "all" but I don't see where it excludes sinners. Maybe you can show it to me.
I am sorry, but even if I believed that we should kill those whom our government declares to be our enemies, I don't think I would change the meaning of the word "all" to mean something other than "all." But isn't this where we keep running into problems anyway, the words in the verses I use, never mean what they say, though they are the words in the verses?
The application I am making is not strictly speaking aimed at a "believers non-involvement in military action," but it is aimed at the pursuit of peace with "all" men. You have to understand, I am not trying to prove peace with every verse I see, but every verse I see which promotes love and reconciliation and mercy and self denial does negate violence on the part of the Christian. The lives of Jesus, the apostles and the other New Testament believers underscore this.
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Response from "K.Al."
Dec 03, 2002 10:42:00 pm
promislander, i value your stance on nonviolence, but i have to disagree with most of what you have said here. if there were no Christians involved in matters of the state, would things get better or worse?
the way i see it, i am a Christian and i am an american. because i am a christian i obey the laws that say as an american i may have to go to war and i may have to kill
p.s. for a nonviolent you seem very angry in your rebuttles
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Response from "cadet"
Dec 04, 2002 12:14:12 am
Hey promiselander, buddy. Let's keep cool and professional in our dealings with each other. I respect you a lot, and in return, I would appreciate it if you do not attempt to unChristianize me because I do not agree with your views.
Also, you quote me out of context very often. Please do not misconstrue my quotes to mean something that is manipulated to fit into your scheme of things.
Anyways, you're a great guy! May God bless you in your ministry.
Respectfully,
J V
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Response from promiselander
Dec 04, 2002 12:42:16 am
Bro. K. Al., thanks for coming in and sharing your thoughts.
I am sorry you percieve me as being angry. Part of the problem with this medium is the failure to convey my real and whole self (as the crowd breathes a sigh of releaf in the background).
There is no way for you to know if I am being honest with you or if I am able to rightly judge myself, but nonetheless, I assure you, I am not angry with anyone. I read the posts that are made and the ones which are of a more personal nature and directed toward me, cause me to smile. I am very passionate and unashamed concerning what I have come to understand and experience. I try to communicate my thoughts and my passion in the forum. I also try to communicate my sweet, tender, compassionate and loving self as well (as sighs turn to snickers). If you have not read all of my posts on this subject (like who has the time) you might not have seen that sensitive side of me. However, I trust that the participants will try to understand my softer side and give me credit for being a partaker of grace and having a heart of love because of the presence and fullness of the Holy Spirit. I know that I don't discount other people's grace just because I don't agree with their positions. I try not to make personal attacks but I do go for the throat of the arguments which are offered and sometimes the person and his thoughts are not that far apart. I suffer the same thing all the time and don't take offense. I don't believe I have to be Mr. Milktoast in order to be holy, pure and righteous (through the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit, the Blood and the Word.). I would never do anything knowingly which I thought would be a stumbleling block to another. I would never be unkind or unloving if I knew about it. I figure this is a discussion board and this is an important issue. I also figure that every one in here should be big enough to handle some heat. If I knew of someone who could not handle it, I would treat them differently. If someone is offended because of my style of confrontation, please let me know. I wouldn't hurt you for anything. But as I said, you can't know these things through this medium.
I would love to meet y'all sometime. You would be welcome to come and visit us in our home and at our ministry if you have the opportunity. You can find out more about us at my website address in my profile. If I ever get a chance to come out west again I would love to come and say, "Hi."
I am somewhat of a contradiction to a number of people. The pacifist crowd think I am a hawk and the violence crowd think that I am a dove. I see myself as a dove with teeth and talons. My position that the State has the right to bear the sword to protect the righteous and punish the wicked is too violent for the pacifist and my position that Christians are called to peace and peacemaking is too wimpy for the violent crowd. I believe that Paul was nonviolent along with the other New Testament believers, yet I don't see them as spineless or cowardly, and they did not mince their words.
I believe I have some things to offer in terms of understanding the Scripture, but I seem to be pretty much the only one who thinks that in this group. I am not offering some strange new doctrines. But, very seldom does anyone in this forum express agreement with the positions I share concerning Scripture. I don't understand that, because most of what I say is not that unusual. For those few occasions of support, I have been very appreciative.
Again, thanks for your input and I hope you will try to see me as not being angry, just convinced. I am not ignoring your statement concerning Christian's participation in "matters of state," but that is another post sometime, maybe.
Bro. Cadet, show me where I have misrepresented you and I will correct it. And I am not unChritianizing you for any reason, much less because you don't agree with my views.
And I do care about you in your schooling and your future. I hope for only the best for you. I have no doubt that you live your convictions and you boldly share your faith. I do pray for you and Bro. SrAirman's safety. I know these are difficult days and we are headed for some darker days ahead.
But I only figured you could take it since you dish it out. If I can't take it, I don't dish it out. I don't believe I have said anything inconsistant with the evidence at hand. If I have, correct me. I guess I am just use to more open and confrontational encounters with other believers than some of you are use to. You tone down and I will too (how boring). You might want to re-read your postings to me and see why I thought we were being open with each other.
I hope your tests went well. Oh, I hope we also get a chance to meet, but you can leave the bayonet behind.
With love and respect,
Your servant in Christ
David
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