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PAGE 27 DISCUSSION ON CHRISTIAN NONVIOLENCE
Response from "SR.AIRMAN"
Posted: Dec 03, 2002 11:52:45 am
Hi to all involved in this on-going discussion! I Have read all of the posts so far and would LOVE to respond right away as I usually do. I am , however, quite busy for the moment at my deployed military site and am taking care of "business". I unfortunately just don't have time to respond in full detail to these posts right now but will at a future date(hopefully sooner than later). It's gotten real busy here lately for me!! Thanks for understanding my immediate priorities. Grace and Peace, Senior Airman Allen L. Jackson. Stay in touch.
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Response from "L"
Dec 03, 2002 6:16:53 pm
I realize our country is horrible, but we are still responsible to obey the government. Rome was much worse when the Bible was written, and God still commanded them to obey the government. Just because we don't solve all the social ills, or even attempt to, doesn't mean we shouldn't obey where we can.
The government doesn't always follow God's will, but you and I do far more to support these ills by paying taxes than we would by supporting our country by serving the military. Using the evilness of the state to argue as to why we shouldn't obey it is rather a weak argument.
The military doesn't ordinarily require its members to do anything that violates God's Word (Unless you can find something that tells you not to kill or be violent, which I can't), so I have no trouble with those who join as a service to their country.
We do live in two kingdoms, God's and this world's. I have responsibilities to both. I obey God first and country second. Anything my country says to do or not do I will obey unless it violates something God says to do or not do. I don't see where serving in the military violates God's commands.
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Response from promiselander
Dec 03, 2002 6:58:53 pm
If we pay close attention, we can learn something from what has happened in this forum, regardless of our point of veiw concerning Violent and NonViolent Christians, Killing and NonKilling Christians.
Some in here have been promoting nonviolence and no killing by Christians...ok, one of us has been promoting nonviolence and no killing by Christians. Others have been promoting violence and killing as an acceptable standard for Christians. Though there are varying degrees as to the actual outworking of this violence and killing, there has been more camraderie amongst the various shades of "State-ist" Christians than there has been with the one who says (rightly or wrongly) that the way of peace is the higher way for the Christian. Some have pretty much had their minds made up from the beginning and really have not even heard the position of the nonviolent side. In our zeal to prove and hold to Christian violence and killing in the name of Christian duty, there has been a gravitation toward the exaltation of the State and the quoting of patriots as if these were inerrant revelations of God. I can almost hear the "Star Spangled Banner" as I read some of these posts. Quotes from patriots and historical personages are used to bolster the "Christian" position in support of violence. Documents and creeds are referred to as if they are the standard by which Christians set their course. But in the midst of this political rally, which holds appeal for a very small part of earth's population and excludes many for whom the blood of Jesus was spilled, there is no New Testament support.
Rather than face that fact, some seemingly become more repulsed to the way of peace, sacrifice, forgiveness, mercy and suffering, and become more vocal in their commitment to kill in the name of the State, provided it is the United States and provided it is the killing for which they have personal preferences. It is the same attitude which drives the Irish "Christians", Lebanese "Christians", Roman "Christians" and a handful of others who kill in the name of Jesus, in line with the Crusaders of the middle ages who killed Mid Easterners in the name of Jesus. We can sit here under the waving of Old Glory and see the absurdity of these other conclaves of violent Christians, but figure that Romans 13 supposedly gives American Christians the right to take up arms and kill in the name of God. It is easy for us to see the error of their way, just as the rest of the world sees the error of the violent American Christian's way. But they are wrong of course and we are right.
Another thing to see in all of this is the focus of doing the "real" work of God with guns and bombs and "taking care of business" in a military setting. Those who do the work of the ministry are "sitting on the sidelines," those who are looking into the New Testament instead of the U.S. Constitution or Declaration of Independence or some other Pariotic Document are involved in "petty arguments." Those who are not trained in the arts of carnal warfare do not understand the more complex issues of life. There should have been an outcry from every Bible believer in this forum against such unspiritual evaluations. But no, it was left up to the "peacenik" to stand for the excellency of the call of God to ministry above all other vocational pursuits. Does everyone else stand with such unBiblical statements or do we just stand against nonviolence to such an extent that we will allow the anti-spiritual position to voice itself against those who are doing the REAL work of God?
I think it becomes clear why we must depend on the arm of flesh in westernized Christianity. We really don't believe that the Holy Spirit and the Word of God can accomplish miracles of victory through prayer, preaching and practical love by believers who serve under the blood stained banner as servants of Jesus and not the servants of a temporal system. We are looking to horses and chariots to deliver and conquer, and that is why there is such an emphasis and expenditure of energy on the carnal weapons rather than an army who wrestles not against flesh and blood. If we ever turn our faith to Him and march to His beat we will again find out what He meant when He said that the "gates of hell shall not prevail" against THE CHURCH, THE CHURCH, THE CHURCH. If we trust in the ways and weapons of the world, we will not see the world fall to the Sword of the Spirit. We cannot wield the Sword of the Spirit and the sword of the State at the same time and expect to defeat the powers of darkness to our maximum and bring people to Jesus. There are plenty of people who will wield the sword of the State, and there are not enough who are pressing the spiritual battle to the max. Plus the fact, there is considerably less need for manpower in our modern American warfare than ever before and there is greater need for soldiers of the Cross today than ever before.
We sing "Give of Your Best to the Master" and then rush our young men down to the "recruiters" office. I am sorry brethren, the world system and the war machine of this world are not God's primary choices for reaching the world, it is the Church, it is service, it is sacrifice. Yes, God reaches men and women in the military, just like He reaches men and women in Hollywood, but that does not put God's blessing on all of the affairs of Hollywood any more than it puts God's blessing on all of the affairs of State or the military. If there are men and women who love God in the military, pray for them, pray for their success and their safety, but don't make them to be God's first line of attack against the enemies of mankind. If we look to the arm of flesh, we may defeat those with smaller arms, we may westernize them but the proof is in, we do not evangelize them. We need to accept the fact that those who follow God fully do not war according to the flesh. And if I am sitting on the sidelines, I at least know which side to cheer for. It is better than being on the playing field and not knowing who the enemy is.
I firmly believe that there will be a pre-tribulation rapture, that Christians will escape the Tribulation. However, I do not believe that we will escape persecution and suffering since that happens to "all who will live godly in this world." Just ask Christians in other parts of the world. We seem to think that the spreading of Democracy is the same as the spreading of the Gospel. Maybe we had better examine the evidence. Those who confuse our form of government with the Thousand Year Reign of Christ are far from a Biblical understanding of the kingdom of God. Yes, this is the best form of government going and it was based on Christian principles, but it is only a momentary glimmer in a world which is overcome with darkness and the hope of the world is not in our governmental system or our military might, it is in the Gospel of Peace and the Prince of Peace. I realize we will not bring the kingdom with the preaching of the Gospel, but neither will we bring it with the wielding of the sword of the State. We will not bring the kingdom to this world, but we can bring the message of the King of Kings to this world. As long as we focus on the greatness of the State and look to carnal weapons we will fail to trust and prove and present the greatness of God and the power of His Spirit to this lost and dying world.
If a man feels that he is allowed to serve in the service of his country, even to the point of bearing arms, he should not see his calling as more heroic or worthy than those who don't. But if we don't see the more excellent way of love and peace and ministry, why should those who are in the service see it. Wouldn't it be something if our ministries caused our young men and women to want to commit to the spiritual warfare that conquers satan and darkness? But not to fear, I don't think there is any danger of that happening. I think we will continue to send our children to be fodder for the war machine rather than bearers of light and love and peace into a world of darkness, hatred and violence.
And finally,
Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
If I were to read the Scriptures like some of you do I would probably say, "Of course this has nothing to do with ALL men, and even if it did it would not REALLY mean PEACE." But then again, I look to the Word for my leading and not to the words of mere men, regardless of thier place in history.
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