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PAGE 25 DISCUSSION ON CHRISTIAN NONVIOLENCE
Response from "K.A."
Posted: Dec 01, 2002 3:52:26 pm
Promiselander, I would have to agree with about everything you said in the last post. I don't hold with the position that we should obey the State no matter what. I guess the only point on which I disagree with you is how and to what degree Christians are to actually be a part of the State.
Of course, since we are in a democracy that was actually based on Biblical principles then the whole thing gets a little more complicated. I would not have fought for Rome or Germany because they were trying to build an earthly kingdom and didn't care who they destroyed to reach their aims. ORIGINALLY, the U.S. was created so we could have religious freedom and so we could help those of the world who are being destroyed by evil men and empires. Unfortunately we are no longer a Christian nation whose whole aim is bring glory to God through our government. However, I believe that we are still about protecting the innocent and punishing the evil.
Obviously you believe that God gave the State the authority to do what I have just described because you said so in your last post. Like I said, I agree with just about everything you said, but I still maintain that as Christians we cannot just let unbelievers run the State. If Christians let only evil(unsaved) men run the government the U.S. would soon be little better off than Iraq!
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Response from "L.D."
Dec 02, 2002 6:16:44 pm
I find some disturbing misrepresentations of "our side" in this little debate in Promiselander's last post.
quote:
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(Promiselander said) Your position is the same as all others who mindlessly follow wicked men. They drove the nails into Jesus, they burned the Christians, they executed the Jews, they killed Chinese believers and Russian believers, they are killing Christians in the name of Islamic States today and those who think like you will kill believers in the United States of America and will claim that they are doing God's will and doing Him a service.
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"L" said,
I don't believe I could have been any clearer than in my last post about obeying the state only when it is not calling on us to sin. I just made the point that this should not be an excuse to avoid obeying the state for lesser reasons, and in light of the command to obey the state, we should tend more to obey than to disobey it. I do believe that we have to know something that the state is commanding is wrong before we have any excuse to disobey.
There is also this slight inaccuracy
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(Promiselander said) There is still no New Testament passage or example of anyone ever being violent as a believer...NOT ONE.
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("L" said) Has anyone ever read about Jesus cleansing the Temple? That seems rather violent. Different context than we are arguing here, but still, please try to be accurate.
Here's another one
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(Promiselander said) Read the Record, it is in the Book. We do not have to speculate as to the violence or lack thereof concerning them. We do have to speculate that they would have lived contrary to the evidence. You offer theory, I offer historical fact.
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(L said) I never read anywhere in the Bible where Cornelius left the military. None of the soldiers were told to quit fighting wars for Rome. It is a fact that there were Christian soldiers in the Roman army. The reason most of the people in the New Testament weren't involved militarily was because a majority of the major characters were Jews and were not allowed to be in the Roman military. If Israel had been an independent nation, they very likely would have served in its military.
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Response from promiselander
Dec 02, 2002 9:20:48 pm
AHHHHH, a breath of fresh air...someone who can read and understand my posts. Thank you Bro. K for sharing. It may very well be that we would disagree on some areas, but that is still undecided. Even if we do disagree, it is important to at least know why we disagree.
You said,
quote:
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"I guess the only point on which I disagree with you is how and to what degree Christians are to actually be a part of the State."
"Like I said, I agree with just about everything you said, but I still maintain that as Christians we cannot just let unbelievers run the State. If Christians let only evil(unsaved) men run the government the U.S. would soon be little better off than Iraq!"
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To a degree, I agree with these statements. It might be that we disagree on the mode or "the how" of the Christian's intervention in the affairs of men rather than on the degree to which Christians are to impact civil affairs. You might be surprised to what extreme I go in order to stand against wickedness in high places and against injustice. It might be that you don't know anyone who goes as far as I do to stand against wickedness and promote social holiness. And no, I am not a subversive or involved in any anti-American activities.
Regardless of what your position was before this discussion, you have at least been willing to read and evaluate my posts. I think it is important to be willing to listen and learn in order to draw conclusions on issues. When we are set in our ways, we do not give God the opportunity to lead us in His Way. I enjoyed your post in the Personal Testimony section. It tells me that you are wanting to find out God's mind on issues before you start declaring your own.
L, L, L, you said,
quote:
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I find some disturbing misrepresentations of "our side" in this little debate in Promiselander's last post
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Bro. L, I am only going on what is said in the discussion. I don't make it up. I did put all of you on one side and me on the other because that is the way the discussion developed. This was part of my point in the last post. Y'all need to stand up for your own position and quit hiding behind each other. If you are going to stand together, you are going to be lumped together and you are going to fall together. Again, I understand why some would not want to stand out from the crowd, since it would leave you standing alone and some of you couldn't stand standing alone. You would also be subject to everyone else's "fire", friendly or otherwise.
Therefore, I stand by what I said about mindlessly following wicked men. Some of "you" have already admitted it. If you don't want to be confused with those who would mindlessly follow wicked men, you ought not to hang with them unless you are willing to "hang with them."
I did not give any disturbingmisrepresentations... disturbing yes, misrepresentations, no. Those with whom you are siding (keeping company) in this discussion are the ones you should be bothered with, not me.
You also said,
quote:
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There is also this slight inaccuracy
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quote:
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(Quote from promiselander..."There is still no New Testament passage or example of anyone ever being violent as a believer...NOT ONE."
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to which you said,
quote:
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Has anyone ever read about Jesus cleansing the Temple? That seems rather violent. Different context than we are arguing here, but still, please try to be accurate.
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I am sorry Bro. L, I thought you understood that I was not referring to God in the flesh when I said...
quote:
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"no New Testament passage or example of anyone ever being violent AS A BELIEVER...NOT ONE."
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I don't put Jesus in the category of "BELIEVER." I am totally surprised if you put Jesus in the category of "Believer." Therefore, I do not need to correct an inaccuracy but rather correct an error of understanding on your part.
(As a sidenote, if you consider what Jesus did in the temple to be "violence", then maybe we better start at square one and define our terms. In spite of the fact that He was God and He could do whatever He so chose to do, He didn't even scratch the surface of violence.)
Again, you said concerning my supposed inaccuracies,
(Quote from L)
quote:
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...Here's another one
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(Qoute from promiselander)
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...Read the Record, it is in the Book. We do not have to speculate as to the VIOLENCE or lack thereof concerning them. We do have to speculate that they would have lived contrary to the evidence. You offer theory, I offer historical fact.
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L then surmised,
quote:
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I never read anywhere in the Bible where Cornelius left the military. None of the soldiers were told to quit fighting wars for Rome. It is a fact that there were Christian soldiers in the Roman army.
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Please take note:
Promiselander NEVER SAID,
* that Cornelius left the army
The Scripture NEVER SAID that these soldiers were being violent, therefore
Promiselander NEVER SAID,
* that the soldeirs were told to quit fighting wars for Rome.
Promiselander NEVER SAID that there were no Christians at all in the army, but rather
Promiselander SAID,
quote:
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You also must go against historical data to asert that Christian's were active in the military and were actively violent in any capacity within the first couple of centuries of Church History.
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The fact is, Christians were not only not joining the Roman army for a period of time because of their aversion to violence and killing, plus their refusal to take an oath to obey Caesar as God, they were not allowed by Rome to join for a period of time because of these reasons. Every account of a centurian you have offered is either prior to the Church age or prior to the individual coming to a full understanding of the Gospel. And even then you have no evidence of any of them being violent. Christians were executed by the Roman army because they would not do the will of Rome. You haven't mentioned that yet.
Cadet and Sr.Airman, I still ask, if there was a law passed in this country which required you to turn in your own personal weapons, would you comply or would you do as Larry indicated he might do by excusing your disobedience to the State by some fancy-footwork claiming that,
quote:
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it becomes a matter of deciding which law is higher, the constitution or lesser laws.
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According to the Word, we are to obey "kings" and "governors." You cannot pick and choose which one you like better. I say there is a Divine order of authority. I refuse to obey the State when it goes against God and His will. You refuse when you don't like it.
Oh, by the way, Why is it so clear that there are "higher and lesser laws" in the State, but people have had a hard time understanding my position concerning the Higher law of God over the laws of man?
Again, I do not expect an open and clear answer from our military men. It could cause them trouble, just as it would cause trouble for Cadet if his superiors and instructors were to read his posts to me in this discussion.
My point is, we must take a stand where the Word is and not retreat. If we find ourselves defending an indefensible position, we need to beat a hasty retreat. We do not need to fight a ghost which does not exist. We have plenty of real enemies and we need to turn our total energy to defeat the powers of darkness and quit playing politics which pleases the fat cats and oppreses the poor.
Luv y'all, let me know what you think.
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