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PAGE 24 DISCUSSION ON CHRISTIAN NONVIOLENCE
Response from "LD"
Sr./Bible College
Nov 26, 2002 3:25:26 pm
Sorry I've been away a few days, I was away for awhile, then some wierd internet problems, but all is OK. I am alive. (Collective sigh of relief, please. )
A couple of quick things.
Promiselander, where exactly am I to "get the light" on the issue of total nonviolence, since I can't find it in the Bible.
Also, you said:
quote:
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According to your statement, the Christian could be acting according to the whim and caprice of the State, but according to my statement, the State is acting according to the will of God.
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I would maintain that God's Word says that we are to obey the state and that the State is God's minister, so disobeying the state should not be done lightly and for some rather obscurely reasoned principle of nonviolence (I have thought and studied extensively and still don't see it clearly in the Scriptures). I don't see where we get out of our responsibility to the state except to avoid sinning, and killing is nowhere called a sin. The command of the state is God's will unless it specifically tells us to violate the teachings of Scripture.
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Response from "L" cont.
Nov 26, 2002 3:31:56 pm
You also said
quote:
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Though you may not put approval on ALL killing by the State (yet to be proved), you are more likely to kill at the behest of the State than not to kill.
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I would answer resoundingly yes. I have a clear command to obey the state, no command against killing, and only questions of interpretation regarding its status as a sin. If killing is a sin, then there is no way God would expressly OK it for anyone, and He did. If it is only a sin after I see certain "light", then why did He put such a dark lampshade over it and assume that at least people in the state (which would be most of us) wouldn't see it?
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Response from "Sr.Airman"
Posted: Nov 27, 2002 2:16:02 pm
To lwd1.....I agree completely with your statements, especially with your last post in regards to the idea of the 'sin' aspect of killing. To promiselander: I have and do read all of your postings with great thought before I answer them(I work every day/night till 0500 in the morning). It's just that at this point I am simply still waiting for specific answers in regards to the basic questions I had asked you in my last post. To restate those questions in their most simplified forms I can possibly think of are as follows: !) according to your view of scriptures, is it acceptable (sin or not?) to God for a Christian to serve in a police-type role of a 'state' or other similar system(yes or no) and 2) according to your view of scripture, do you feel that God considers a Christian who serves in one of these police-type roles of the 'state' (earthly governments which God himself ordains!) is following a 'lesser' calling, 'yes' or 'no'(because you implied/or stated in your previous posting that you feel that Christians living a completely non-violent life were following a 'higher' calling, thereby meaning that if there is is a 'higher' calling then there also has to be a 'lower' calling------higher than what?).As I said earlier, I am only taking the time to reiterate these questions because I am a person of great detail in my thought and conversation process in trying to FULLY understand someone's viewpoint of scripture that is different than mine. I really can't go ahead further in this discussion until you can answer these 'yes' and 'no' questions; simply because my next points hinge on HOW and WHAT your answers will be. I appreciate your patience and also for understanding me in our discussions; I just haven't yet had an individual of your persuasion on this Bible issue answer me directly from scriptures clear-cut answers to these 2 questions. If you will, then it would greatly expand my understanding of how and why you arrive at your convictions. Grace and Peace.
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Response from promiselander
Nov 28, 2002 12:26:31 am
I lost y'all for awhile. I thought you had moved and didn't tell me where.
It took me awhile, but I found you.
If anyone sees B, would you tell him I was unable to edit a post I made in the Romans 7 discussion.
I know you have missed me as much as I have missed you, but I'll be back anyway.
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Response from Promiselander
Posted: Dec 01, 2002 7:59:18 am
Some of you cannot find Christian nonviolence in the New Testament.
Just because you cannot find something in the Bible does not mean that it isn't there. How many times do we tell people about holiness and show them the Word of God and they still don't see it? How many times do we show people that their disobedience brings separation from God and they still don't see it? How many times do we show them that there is no such thing as "Once Saved...Always Saved" and they still don't see it? Non violence for believers is in the New Testament, you just don't see it.
I still contend that the State is the minister of God when it is doing His will. I still contend that the State is NOT the minister of God when it is in disobedience to God. It is sin for the State to kill for any other reason than God's specific directive in protecting the righteous and punishing the wicked. For the State to kill for economic and political gain is sin. Injustice in government is sin. Those who kill in the name of the State, when the State is acting in injustice are sinning. Those who willingly support wickedness in government are sinning. Those who willingly support government in wickedness are sinning. Those who willingly support sinning in government are wicked. Those who obey a wicked command are wicked. There is no excuse for those who do things in the name of the State, or in the name of justice, or the Name of Christ, when the action is not in obedience to Christ or promoting truth and mercy and justice. To do evil in the name of God is to take His Name in vain. What kind of Christian ethics ever excused sin because it was the command of a wicked system?
Your position is the same as all others who mindlessly follow wicked men. They drove the nails into Jesus, they burned the Christians, they executed the Jews, they killed Chinese believers and Russian believers, they are killing Christians in the name of Islamic States today and those who think like you will kill believers in the United States of America and will claim that they are doing God's will and doing Him a service.
Even if you are going to hold to the idea that Christians may be used in some violent fashion to protect the righteous and punish the wicked, why would you go beyond that and be willing to follow the State in it's misuse of power. Dress it up any way you choose, you are not right, you are not Biblical. You are voicing the politically correct, westernized view of Christianity and not the Biblical revelation. There is still no New Testament passage or example of anyone ever being violent as a believer...NOT ONE. There are plenty of verses which call for mercy, love, peace, sacrifice and other nonviolent responses to our enemies, but you dismiss them by separating our spiritual duties from our civil duties. You also must go against historical data to asert that Christian's were active in the military and were actively violent in any capacity within the first couple of centuries of Church History. Like it or not, Jesus said and meant, "My kingdom is not of this world, if it were of this world, then would my servants fight." You cannot be His servant and the worlds servant when the commands are contradictory. He did not give the qualifiers you give, neither does the rest of the New Testament.
You have plenty of enthusiasm, plenty of "conviction" and plenty of encouragement, but no New Testament support.
I find it interesting that though there are several different postitions in this discussion group, there are only two sides being argued. To kill or not to kill. To be violent or not to be violent. While the fact is that y'all don't even agree with each other.
Some of you will kill whenever.
Some of you will kill at the behest of the State, regardless of the circumstances.
Some of you will kill in a just war.
Some of you will kill to save other's lives.
Some of you will kill in self defense.
Some of you will kill in private life but not in the military.
Your problems are as much with each other as with me, but you would rather stand together against the "peacenik" than to confront each other over your differences on killing. You can see each other's unBiblical position, but it would undermine your own position to draw any kind of line of prohibition against killing, so you allow for that which you find unBiblical. Let's be honest.
You have constantly asked me to answer questions which I have taken pains to answer and I have even offered to discuss these issues privately through email (which apparently is not worth the time or effort for anyone). But my questions go unanswered and ignored. For instance...(re-read all of these questions, not just a few).
* Do you really think that New Testament believers could kill in the name of Rome?
* That they could kill the very people to whom they were being sent as evangelists?
* That they could kill the very people for whom Jesus died to save?
* Do you really think that New Testament believers went out with a Bible in one had and an executioners sword in the other?
* Do you really believe that Jesus would allow His soldiers to shed the blood of foreigners simply because they were displeasing or inconvenient to the plan of Rome?
* Do you really believe that we Christians are to do the killing for those who hate Christ?
* Knowing what you know, would you drive the nails into His hands and feet if it was a "lawful order?"
* Would you round up the Jews for the death camps in Germany if it was a "lawful order?"
* Will you be obeying the State when they have you take action against me and other followers of Christ if it is a "lawful order?"
* If your position is, "Since God allowed and commanded war in the Old Testament, therefore all war, at least all war our country enters into and all killing done by the State is allowed and commanded by God." then why don't we kill our firstborn? Why don't we encourage the marrying of young men of God to whores? Why don't you strip yourselves naked and march down the street to preach the Word of God, why don't you dance naked before the Lord? Because each of those instances have a qualifying or condemning principle behind them. And so it is with Old Testament war. War was never God's will, in the sense of His first choice. Sickness is not His will as a first choice. Famine is not His will as a first choice. Pestilence is not His will as a first choice. Has God used these things to bring about His purposes? YES. But it was not His perfect will. Has God used war? Yes, but it was not His perfect will, either in the Old Testament nor now in the Church age.
* The answer that you would obey the "constitution" rather than some "lesser law" means you do not want to obey, what you claim to be, the New Testament position of obedience to Caesar. Your arguments have no New Testament support and they are contradictory to your own position. Especially you military men, saying that you obey your government. Would you turn in your guns if there was a law passed which required it? (How about the rest of you? Do you ever break any speed limits or other laws of the State when they are inconvenient to your own plans?)
Just because you do not understand the concept of obedience to God first and that peace is a higher standard and calling than violence, you deny and seek to discredit the position of Christian nonviolence.
Jesus would be much more at home living according to the position I espouse than the one's y'all claim to believe. Regardless of what you think Jesus and the New Testament meant, the fact is, Jesus lived by the standards I present and so did the rest of the New Testament believers. He did not live by your position nor did other New Testament believers. Read the Record, it is in the Book. We do not have to speculate as to the violence or lack thereof concerning them. We do have to speculate that they would have lived contrary to the evidence. You offer theory, I offer historical fact.
I realize of course that none of this post is accurate and even if it is, it does not apply to anyone in here.
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