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PAGE 18 DISCUSSION ON CHRISTIAN NONVIOLENCE
Response from "LD"
Sr./Bible College
Nov 19, 2002 6:10:21 pm
Thanks to everybody for the very enlightening posts.
To Promiselander,
I would have to say that you are asking the wrong question when you are asking "What would Jesus do?" and equating that with what He did do and taking it as guidance for your life. The question should be "what would Jesus have me to do?" Otherwise you might be running around throwing people out of churches all over the place. The point is to obey Him, not necessarily model our lives in detail after Him, otherwise all of us who are not possessionless itenerant preachers in our home coutries that die in their mid thirties are out of luck.
I believe the testimonies of the military brethren who also post on this string, as well as the Scriptures I have pointed out lead to the conclusion that God is still in the business of building His church even in the military, and that He does allow for violence and killing in this world.
You also asked me to point out what Scriptures you used out of context, so here goes.
Philippians 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.
You followed this passage by the comment that if we were to follow it we could not kill. I frankly don't see that in this passage at all, and since this verse is followed by an exhortation to keep the pure doctrine, I think we can safely say it is referencing our thoughts, expecially in the direction of what we believe and practice.
Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ,seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Col 3:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
Col 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
Col 3:7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
Col 3:8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
Col 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
Col 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
Col 3:13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
Col 3:14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.
Col 3:15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.
Col 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
Col 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.
Your commentary on this section of Scripture says that we have one king, Jesus, and that is true. I don't know who has disagreed with you on that point (I must have missed that post). The only thing is that my King, Jesus Christ, has told me directly to obey earthly authorities, since He set them up.
You also make verse 14 of this passage refer to being peaceful all the time, when the verses before it clearly makes this a statement about life within the church.
Jam 3:10 Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.
Jam 3:11 Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?
Jam 3:12 Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.
Jam 3:13 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.
Jam 3:14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.
Jam 3:15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
Jam 3:16 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.
Jam 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
Jam 3:18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.
Jam 4:1 From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?
Jam 4:2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.
You try to make this passage argue against following the state into war and killing, but it nowhere talks about that. It is very clearly from the context, and even from within itself, talking about heart attitude and how to live with others within the church. The whole passage begins in chapter 3 talking about our words and ends talking about heart attitude and lusts.
Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!
for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
This verse and the ones about it were one of Jesus' strongest condemnations of the Pharisees for adding stuff that wasn't there to the Word of God. I don't see where this applies to our arguments here, other than the fact that you are putting a ban on obeying Jesus command and the command of Romans 13 in the area of serving our country as police or in wartime. One of the weightier matters is obedience, and one of the matters not condemned is killing, so....
Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
This verse is saying that God has prepared the wicked for a day of disaster and distruction, not that He wants to use them to do evil. To say that God uses sinners to perpetrate evil is directly contradictory to His very nature and is a heresy (see James 1:13 and all passages on the nature of His holiness)
Please do be careful that in attributing your position to the Word of God that you have clear reason to do so and that you take in the whole scope of God's Word. Check out what the authors were saying to the audience in the passages you proof-text for your arguments. I believe that you will find that they are not focusing on what you are. God rather frowns on those who say He is saying something that He is not, so be careful who you attribute your ideas to.
I apologize for the length of this post, but the Scriptures listed were rather lengthy.
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Response from "AJ"
SrAirman/corp.USAF
Servant
Posted: Nov 19, 2002 2:51:01 pm
To usarmycadet.......hello Sir, how are you. By the way, did you receive one of my "many" postings to answer your much earlier questions as to what rank I was and at which base I was permanently stationed? Also, thank you for your continued comments and interaction......it is much appreciated. How are things going for you at the academy? Tough but very rewarding I'm sure. May God richly bless you as you follow His will for your life at this time in serving God and country...PRO DEO et PATRIA!!! I want to share a quote from an earlier patriot (cne of my very favorites!) who saw the moral neccessity for patriotic sacrifce and duty: "War IS an ugly thing, but NOT the ugliest of things; the decayed and degregated state of moral and patriotic feelings which thinks that nothing is worth war IS much WORSE. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing he cares about more than his own safety, IS a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions AND blood of better men than himself." .........taken from John Stuart Mill's "ON LIBERTY", 1859. I'm sure that you, being a military man such as myself, can appreciate such a statement! Please copy it and share it with others at the academy where it will be much appreciated, I'm sure. Keep in touch, your brother in Christ and in Arms, Senior Airman(SRA) A J. HOOAH!
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Response from promiselander
Nov 19, 2002 6:56:10 pm
Bros. J and A, I had the response to usarmycadet prepared this morning, but did not send it because I like to think about things before I post them. I will post this now and shuold have a response to Bro. A (Corporal? J I believe). Hey Brothers, I do appreciate it when you put your minds and hearts into it. If you give yourself a chance, you may even figure out that there is more in my postings than you have been willing to accept. It is just too easy to dismiss me and my position with canned responses. AND PLEASE STAY TUNED, YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE TO SEE WHAT I AM ABOUT TO SAY CONCERNING SOME OF THE PASSAGES Y'ALL HAVE BROUGHT UP. Not in this post, but real soon the Lord willing.
Bro. L, just as I was getting ready to post I saw that you had posted. (I hope Larry does not mind someone who teaches "heresy" calling him brother.) I am not ignoring your post. I will respond shortly, the Lord willing.
Bro. J, I understand your time restrictions. I also think that you are not hurting yourself, your studies or your future status by being part of this discussion whenever you can. After all, you are going to run into all kinds of strange birds in your future and by hearing what I have to say may be part of your training in dealing with them. As you said, it will give you,
quote:
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the opportunity to see more of what you peace at all costs individuals think to rationalize your belief system.
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Of course, you are already wrong. You call my position "peace at all costs." It seems as if you can get into the Acadamy without knowing how to read. Because I have never said it. You have never read it. You made that up and that means you are not really ready to deal with people like me at all. If as an officer in the military you analyze your enemy as clearly as you have analyzed my position, you will be leading troops against KCCBC before it is over. If there is one thing you should do as an officer in the military, it is KNOW YOUR ENEMY. Now, I am not your enemy, just your opponent, but you don't have any idea as to my position according to what you just said.
I find it interesting that you base the possibility that Jesus would join the military on the Mt. 22:21. Exactly where did Jesus say we owe our lives to Caesar? Exactly where did Jesus say that there are no limits to what Caesar can claim? Exactly where did Jesus say that we should render to Caesar what rightfully belongs to God? By the way, did you read the rest of that verse?
So, do you believe that Jesus would serve in Saddam's army? After all, Mt. 22 does not stipulate which Caesar.
Just out of curiosity, is it your firm belief that all Americans should surrender their guns if there is a law passed which requires that no Americans own a gun? Or is this another one of those questions which will not be answered?
Hey, do you want to have some fun at my expense (now that is a silly question). Take my postings in here and show them to your fellow classmates. Ask them for their analysis of my position and see how many agree with you that I am one of those "peace at all costs individuals." Naw, I didn't think you would.
You have made something clear to me though. If you can't understand what I am saying in this discussion, no wonder you can't understand what the Word says concerning our relationship with the State. After all, I stated my position and restated it and I have been willing to answer questions about it. Whereas, God's Word makes a statement and then you have to search the rest of the Scriptures to understand it in the context of His point of view.
Does somebody else want to explain to Jeffrey why he cannot use the Mt. 17:27 passage in the way he did, or do I get to do it?
As far as my statement concerning violence in the Old Testament, Church Age and Tribulation not making "too much sense", that is okay. I have that problem alot with folks (be still my heart). Then again, I would think you and all other believers have the same problem when explaining a truth to someone who will not accept it.
One more thing, I hope you don't fall off your horse when you see who is riding with you.
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