|
| |||||
|
|
|
| ||
PAGE 17 DISCUSSION ON CHRISTIAN NONVIOLENCE
Response from "LD"
Sr./Bible College
Nov 18, 2002 5:16:02 pm
Promiselander,
It seems that you are using the same tools you argue against. Besides drawing Scripture (James 4,Prov. 16:4)out of context and using it to say other than what it does say in context (which I find very troubling), you seem to use the silence of the new Testament on an issue to be a command. HAve you not read the first part of Romans 13? It is very clearly a command regarding our responsibility to our state. I would be very careful to know for sure that the Bible forbids something that the State commands before disobeying the law.
You deride me for using reasoning and personal opinions in my arguments, yet since there is no clear Scriptural backing for your position you base your whole argument on your world-view and by extrapolation from choice portions of Scripture. I will avoid violating the direct command of God and will be happy to help my country fulfill its direct command from God. If you choose not to, I will respect that and hope that you don't convince too many people that love equals total non-violence.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Response from promiselander
Nov. 8, 2002 7:48:43 pm
Bro. L, let me ask you some questions.
1. Do you believe Jesus would join the military service of the U.S.A.?
2. Do you believe He would bear arms and enter into physical warfare if He were living here physically?
3. Do you believe He would kill anyone that our government told Him to kill?
4. Do you believe He would join the military service of another country if He were a legal resident or citizen in that country?
5.Do you believe He would bear arms and enter into physical warfare against the U.S.A if He were directed to do so by the leaders of His country of residence?
6. Do you believe He would kill anyone that the foreign government told Him to kill?
I have to admit, I will not be shocked out of my socks when you say YES to any or all of the above...any more than you would be shocked to hear me say, "No way, Jose."
Also, this would be a great opportunity to explain to me where I took all of those passages out of context and what they really mean.
BTW Does anyone ever get in the chat rooms on this site? I have stopped by from time to time, but no one is ever there.
P.S. Yes, I have read the first part of Romans 13. That is not fair, your questions are too easy.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Response from "JV"
usarmycadet
Nov 18, 2002 10:48:39 pm
In following the life and teachings of Jesus, I believe that He would have joined the military service of His country if necessary to do so. While He discouraged the establishment of Church through use of the sword, He encourages submission to government in Matthew 22:21, where He instructs us to:
"Render therefore unto Caesar the theings which are Caesar's: and unto God the things that are God's."
We have a loyalty to God, but we also have a strong loyalty to our country. As long as I can serve my country in clear conscience, I will be glad to fight wherever my country sends me.
Also, when He instructs Peter to go fishing so that His taxes would be paid, Jesus again teaches us obedience to the government that God has established over us.
Jesus is clearly in favor of War against the evils of this world, for He shall lead an army at the end of Revelation that will crush the devil and his worldly legions. Too bad that promiselander won't be riding with us.
The 4 centurions in the Bible were all well spoken of. When some of them were saved, they continued in their professions. When soldiers were baptized under John the Baptist, he told them not to abuze their power, but to use it wisely.
Promiselander, I do know that it is possible to integrate your faith with your profession. The more Christian soldiers, politicians, doctors, lawyers, preachers, and anything else we get, the better.
According to you, promiselander, God wants us to fight in the Old Testament, be peaceful in the New Testament, and then fight again in the end.?? Doesn't make too much sense.
Sorry, but I don't have a lot of time to analyze these different arguements because I am always a very very busy student, but I can testify to the fact that in following God's will for my life, He has very definitely lead me into the Armed Forces, and I can sense His presence in My life as well as His smile of approval. While your ideas are not agreeable to mine, promiselander, you do present an interesting world view, even if it is not the correct one in my estimation. It does, however, give me the opportunity to see more of what you peace at all costs individuals think to rationalize your belief system.
Sorry for these randomness of these thought, but promiselander, you are wrong. Nowhere in the Bible does God tell us to refrain from military service.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Response from "AJ"
SrAirman/Corp. USAF
Nov 19, 2002 11:31:09 am
To Promiselander.......Hi, I'd like to first say that I truly hope and pray that you do not feel(through my postings) I have animosity or anger or even impatience towards you for your firm beliefs and convictions. I do not. In no way, shape or form. I really admire a fellow believer for having strong convictions because if we don't stand for SOMETHING we will fall for ANYTHING! I am, however, confused at one issue you previously stated in an earlier posting. You said (please correct me if I'm wrong) that you feel it is scripturally wrong (hence, sin) for believers to use forceful/violent action(up to and including death IF neccessary) but NOT neccessarrily a sin for a non-believers(armed policeman, military, guardsmen, etc.) to stop sinful/forceful/violent/murderous acts of wicked/disobedient individuals (in their line of duty of obeying the authorities that God has placed over them) in order to maintain civil order and peace for ALL to enjoy the benefits of such. What I don't understand is where in the New Testament you find scriptures to back up your position that God says certain sins(i.e. violnt actions) are not O.K. for Christians to commit and yet that same sin is O.K. for certain non-believers to commit. What about stealing? What about lying? What about cheating? what about adultery? What about with-holding that which belongs unto Caeser? I firmly beleive that that kind of reasoning and logic is inconsistent thinking with someone who shares your exact position in this matter. Because I strongly believe that, according to your beliefs per scriptures, if violent action/stealing/lying/cheating/adultery..etc. etc..is a sin for a believer than it is also sin for the non-believer. And with this understanding it is that I believe someone with your exact beliefs would/should never call/encourage any "policeforce" of any kind to ever defend you or any innocent victimized individual close to you when they are being harmed(not that I wouldn't want you to but because I don't think you would be "sinless" if you involved anyone else to "fight your fight" for you). This is the scenario that I'm not sure you understood my position on in an earlier posting(which actually happens hundreds/thousands of times worlwide everyday) that I'm trying to clear up for you. Now, knowing my position on this exact situation, where in New Testament scripture do you find that you would ever be justified in calling a "policeforce" to help you/others out in a harmful situation. Could you? Also, you said in a recent posting(if I fully understand you) that you feel it is not God's perfect will(first choice) to have ever allowed His follomers to use violent force(Old Tastament or New), but you recognize the fact that He has(Old Teastament)! I agree with that! And in fact would probably say that that is one of my arguments for my position that(cosidering the real world we live in) It truly is not God's "ideal" first choice but rather it is God's "second" choice to use violent action if and when neccessary(but a choice of God nonetheless!). I'm not trying to interpret your inner convictions for you on this matter nor even presume to know your real convictions but; I'm just wondering if what you're really trying top say is the following : that God would "ideally" not want his followers(whether Old Testament or New because there is no "time" with our "unchanging" God) to ever have to resort to violent action, but, because of the fall of mankind in the Garden of Eden which resulted in certain harmful and life-threatening acts of violence towards innocent victims; it was therefore God's realistic way(2nd choice) to allow in certain situations as such,other children of His to restrain those people which commit evil acts (which are equally contrary to His original and "perfect" 1st choice/will of non-violence). And furthermore, because violent acts of restraint/justice are not His 1st and "perfect" choice, you yourself PERSONALLY would PREFER not to have anything to do with those kinds of acts because of what they involve and that unfortunately sometimes innocent people do suffer/die. But because God has/does allow and actually places "authorities" cver us, of whom we are to be obedient, it is not therefore neccessarrily wrong for some of His other children to defend the innocent out of a clear conscience(because of His "2nd" choice). Am I making sense to you Yes/NO? E.G.---some people feel it is wrong to drink alcohol,others do not. But because it is a "grey"area, it is left up to the individual to determine for themslves(not that the actual act of drinking is sin, but that FOR THEM(key phrase: FOR THEM) it is wrong because of thier conscience(noy the act). Anyway, I hope I have clarified some issues for us. Does this sound remotely at all how you feel? Maybe I've made them more confusing.Please let me know. Thank you Sir. Grace and Peace, A J
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Response from "JV"
usarmycadet
Nov 19, 2002 12:59:20 pm
Exellent post, Mr. J, you have an excellent way of expressing yourself.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Response from "AJ"
SrAirman/cor. USAF
Nov 19, 2002 2:51:01 pm
To usarmycadet.......hello Sir, how are you. By the way, did you receive one of my "many" postings to answer your much earlier questions as to what rank I was and at which base I was permanently stationed? Also, thank you for your continued comments and interaction......it is much appreciated. How are things going for you at the academy? Tough but very rewarding I'm sure. May God richly bless you as you follow His will for your life at this time in serving God and country...PRO DEO et PATRIA!!! I want to share a quote from an earlier patriot (cne of my very favorites!) who saw the moral neccessity for patriotic sacrifce and duty: "War IS an ugly thing, but NOT the ugliest of things; the decayed and degregated state of moral and patriotic feelings which thinks that nothing is worth war IS much WORSE. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing he cares about more than his own safety, IS a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions AND blood of better men than himself." .........taken from John Stuart Mill's "ON LIBERTY", 1859. I'm sure that you, being a military man such as myself, can appreciate such a statement! Please copy it and share it with others at the academy where it will be much appreciated, I'm sure. Keep in touch, your brother in Christ and in Arms, Senior Airman(SRA) A J. HOOAH!
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
| Site Tools |
|
|
|
|
|
Verse of the Day |
|
|
