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PAGE 16 DISCUSSION ON CHRISTIAN NONVIOLENCE
Response from Promiselander
Nov 18, 2002 12:50:10 pm
As was made popular by some actor in some movie sometime back, "What we have here is a failure to communicate." And I think I know why. (No I did not see the movie).
Some of y'all in this discussion have shown an interest in knowing what makes a Nonviolent person tick. Even though you have not agreed with my position, you have at least grasped some, if not most, of what I am trying to say. There are others who are Clueless in Seattle or somewhere near there. (No I did not see the [Sleepless] movie either). I think there may be at least three reasons we are having a difficult time communicating.
1. Some don't really care. That is okay, I just hoped when you asked questions and I tried to answer, you might let me know what you were thinking. Again, that is okay, I just like to know so that I don't bore you and I don't waste my time and message board space.
2. I get the impression that some of you have such a predisposition to discount any position with which you disagree, you can't even hear what the other person is saying. I realize we cannot always tell what a person's demeanor is over the internet, but maybe more of us shows through than we are aware. (Now there is a comforting thought). And that is okay too. I am not any more interested in pushing my thoughts than you might be in hearing them.
3. We have two totally different views of the life of the Christian and the Church in this world.
My view... I see the Christian life and the life of the Church in the world as being totally immersed in spiritual and Biblical endeavors. I do not see the secular and the sacred for the Christian. I do not see compartmentalizing life the way some of you may. I do not see that I owe anything to anybody which totally belongs to Jesus. And I see that everything belongs totally to Jesus. My obligation to others, whether individuals or corporate bodies (political or otherwise) is defined in the light of what Jesus would do if He were here. I was asking the question, "What Would Jesus Do?" long before it was on bubmper stickers. (And no, I don't belong to that movement).
I see the Church as God's mission compound in the midst of a foreign field. Our job is not to help the nationals fulfill their dreams and goals, but to bring them into a transforming relationship with Jesus. Our job is not to perfect their system, but to show them God's system and then lead them out of their system and into His system. This includes economics, relationships, fashion, recreations, morals, etc. and all based on the revelation of the Bible and the leading of the Holy Spirit. If there is any thing of their culture or habits which are not in keeping with the Spirit of Christ, we are to help lead them out of that darkness into His wonderful light. We are to show them and then lead them into a life which is more in keeping with the Kingdom of Heaven than with the kingdoms of this world.
Pro 16:7 When a man's ways please the LORD, he maketh even his enemies to be at peace with him.
Rom 12:18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
This is not an excuse for war or violence when our enemy is persistant in his violence. We are to turn the other cheek, we are to do good to our enemy, feed him, give him drink. Like it or not, we are the Church and not the State.
We are to live by standards which are strange to this world. We are to come out from among them and be separate, we are not to touch the unclean thing. We are not to yield our members to do that which is wrong. Even if you can find a war which is not wrong, some of you have stated that you don't really care whether it is or is not, you are willing to kill even your brothers if some pagan, Christ hating, foul mouthed, black hearted, whoremongering, money loving politician tells you to do it. But God says;
Philippians 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.
If we follow this directive we cannot kill, at least kill innocent people. We are strangers and aliens, sojourners just passing through and we are hoping that they will see something in us which will call them away from the ways of this world and into the ways of Christ. If we allow their lifestyle to set our agenda or guide our steps, we will not bring them under His Lordship. Our marching orders are as follows;
Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, SEEK THOSE THINGS WHICH ARE ABOVE, WHERE CHRIST SITTETH ON THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD.
Col 3:2 SET YOUR AFFECTION ON THINGS ABOVE, NOT ON THINGS ON THE EARTH.
Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
Col 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
Col 3:7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
Col 3:8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
Col 3:9 LIE NOT ONE TO ANOTHER, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
Col 3:11 Where THERE IS NEITHER GREEK NOR JEW, CIRCUMCISION NOR UNCIRCUMCISION, BARBARIAN, SCYTHIAN, BOND NOR FREE: BUT CHRIST IS ALL, AND IN ALL.
Col 3:12 PUT ON THEREFORE, AS THE ELECT OF GOD, HOLY AND BELOVED, BOWELS OF MERCIES, KINDNESS, HUMBLENESS OF MIND, MEEKNESS, LONGSUFFERING;
Col 3:13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
Col 3:14 AND ABOVE ALL THESE THINGS PUT ON CHARITY, WHICH IS THE BOND OF PERFECTNESS.
Col 3:15 AND LET THE PEACE OF GOD RULE IN YOUR HEARTS, TO THE WHICH ALSO YE ARE CALLED IN ONE BODY; AND BE YE THANKFUL.
Col 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
Col 3:17 AND WHATSOEVER YE DO IN WORD OR DEED, DO ALL IN THE NAME OF THE LORD JESUS, GIVING THANKS TO GOD AND THE FATHER BY HIM.
We have only one King. We are ambassadors for Christ the King to this world. Our allegiance is to Him and His Kingdom. Our King is the Prince of Peace and we are called to be peacemakers. Yes, The Lord is a Man of War and He can wage war with whom and when He chooses, but He has called me and all Christians to be peacemakers not wielders of carnal weapons. God has no earthly kingdom and therefore His servants do not fight with flesh and blood. I cannot compartmentalize my life into both the peacemaker for Jesus and the warrior for the State. And neither can anyone else from a New Testament position. It does not say that they do not fight for Him, it says they do not fight because His Kingdom is righteousness PEACE and joy. I am part of the diplomatic corp, not the Marine Corp. I am an emmisary for reconciliation, not an instrument of destruction. There is no area of my life over which He is not Lord.
Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
Eph 1:21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and EVERY NAME THAT IS NAMED, NOT ONLY IN THIS WORLD, BUT ALSO IN THAT WHICH IS TO COME:
Eph 1:22 AND HATH PUT ALL THINGS UNDER HIS FEET, AND GAVE HIM TO BE THE HEAD OVER ALL THINGS TO THE CHURCH,
Eph 1:23 WHICH IS HIS BODY, THE FULNESS OF HIM THAT FILLETH ALL IN ALL.
There is no area of my life which comes under any other ruler if it is contrary to the way Jesus would live if He were here. I cannot represent Him in the preaching of peace while I am representing the kings of this world doing violence to them for whom Christ died.
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THEM THAT PREACH THE GOSPEL OF PEACE, AND BRING GLAD TIDINGS OF GOOD THINGS!
We are not to speak both blessing and cursing from the same mouth. How can we behave in peace and in strife at the same time?
Jam 3:10 Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. MY BRETHREN, THESE THINGS OUGHT NOT TO SO BE.
Jam 3:11 DOES A FOUNTAIN SEND FORTH AT THE SAME PLACE SWEET WATER AND BITTER?
Jam 3:12 Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.
Jam 3:13 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him SHEW OUT OF A GOOD CONVERSATION OF WORKS WITH MEEKNESS OF WISDOM.
Jam 3:14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.
Jam 3:15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
Jam 3:16 FOR WHERE ENVYING AND STRIFE IS, THERE IS CONFUSION AND EVERY EVIL WORK.
Jam 3:17 BUT THE WISDOM THAT IS FROM ABOVE IS FIRST PURE, THEN PEACEABLE, GENTLE, AND EASY TO BE INTREATED, FULL OF MERCY AND GOOD FRUITS, WITHOUT PARTIALITY, AND WITHOUT HYPOCRISY.
Jam 3:18 AND THE FRUIT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS IS SOWN IN PEACE OF THEM THAT MAKE PEACE.
Try as we may to justify the killing of the enemy of the State, we have no orders from God to kill in any capacity. We are called to peace and peaceableness, and gentleness, and mercy and to be without partiality and to sow peace and make peace.
Jam 4:1 FROM WHENCE COME WARS AND FIGHTINGS AMONG YOU? COME THEY NOT HENCE, EVEN OF YOUR LUSTS THAT WAR IN YOUR MEMBERS?
Jam 4:2 YE LUST, AND HAVE NOT: YE KILL, AND DESIRE TO HAVE, AND CANNOT OBTAIN: YE FIGHT AND WAR, YET YE HAVE NOT, BECAUSE YE ASK NOT.
Holiness is perfect love and perfect love does not go out and kill. I hear you crying "FOUL." God loves perfectly and He kills. Yes, and you are not God. Then again, killing at the behest of the State often means killing the innocent. God is not happy. That IS murder. Can you not read. Do you not see. This is not a Theocracy. We kill the innocent, sometimes before they are born, at the rate of 4000 a day for 30 years. That is like 1-1/2 Twin Towers everyday for three decades. And I hear you saying that it is our Christian obligation. You are wrong. We kill the innocent in war, we kill the innocent in the streets, we kill the innocent in the prisons. Am I for justice? YES. Does God hate injustice? YES, even when "holiness people" do it. Does God overlook our part in injustice because we blame the State. NO, not even if we are Calvinists.
Sometimes people are so concerned about hair, hems and helivision but do not care about the weightier matters. As Jesus said to a select group of so-called holiness people during His earthly life...
Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!
FOR YE PAY TITHE OF MINT AND ANISE AND CUMMIN, AND HAVE OMITTED THE WEIGHTIER MATTERS OF THE LAW, JUDGMENT, MERCY, AND FAITH: THESE OUGHT YE TO HAVE DONE, AND NOT TO LEAVE THE OTHER UNDONE.
I am not saying that all who hold to a different position than I do have an evil heart. I am saying we need to examine the Word and our own hearts and lives to see if they measure up to the calling He has for us, rather than the calling that our evil age has for us.
I have offered New Testament passages which I believe lead us to a higher path. You say they do not apply to killing and we move on. I ask questions about Biblical principles and they often go unanswered.
You have offered personal opinion. You have offered the example of other men in history. You have offered Old Testament passages and principles. You have painted with a broad brush, as if to say, "Since God allowed and commanded war in the Old Testament, therefore all war, at least all war our country enters into and all killing done by the State is allowed and commanded by God." Then why don't we kill our firstborn? Why don't we encourage the marrying of young men of God to whores? Why don't your strip yourselves naked and march down the street to preach the Word of God, why don't you dance naked before the Lord? Because each of those instances have a qualifying or condemning principle behind them. And so it is with Old Testament war. War was never God's will, in the sense of His first choice. Sickness is not His will as a first choice. Famine is not His will as a first choice. Pestilence is not His will as a first choice. Has God used these things to bring about His purposes? YES. But it was not His perfect will. Has God used war? Yes, but it was not His perfect will, either in the Old Testament nor now in the Church age.
You have offered New Testament silence on the issue as proof. But you have not given New Testament arguments for Christians taking up arms and killing in the name of the State. Not one example, not one verse which supports the position. Supposed New Testament silence allows for Sabbath worship, dietary law observation and obligation. Yet I would hope that you are not practicing these things. Supposed New Testament silence is not a good enough reason to kill and murder in the name of the State.
I was asked why God would send sinners to do that which He prohibits His children to do. Let me answer that with an analogy.
When I was a child in school, there were occasions when someone in the class would do something disruptive. If it was difficult for the teacher to determine who the guilty party was, she would punish the whole class. I thought that was unfair, unjust. However, I have come to realize that sometimes the righteous suffer for the unrighteous. But if "she" could have determined the guilty party, she should have punished the guilty party. Let's zoom in on this situation a little. Sometimes a child makes a mess and the adult in charge requires all of the children to clean it up. This is not just. It allows the guilty child to get away with some of his disobedience and disruption of the order. Now here is the part you really won't like. God gives sinners the responsibility of cleaning up the mess they have made. Killing is an ugly, dirty business. It leaves a wide wake of destruction long after the funerals are over. Just because people have decided that they would rather live without Jesus does not remove them from the responsibility to clean us the mess of which they are a part. God sometimes uses the wicked and not the righteous, to accomplish His purposes.
Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Let's understand something right now. God sends us to do the "dirty work" of service which nobody else would do. But they are acts of mercy, not acts of violence and mayhem. God sends us forth with the Sword of the Spirit, and the Shield of Faith and the Helmet of Salvation, and the Breastplate of Rigteousness, and the Combat Boots of the Preparation of the Gospel and Girt about with Truth because WE DO NOT WRESTLE AGAINST FLESH AND BLOOD, BUT AGAINST SPIRITUAL POWERS. OUR WARFARE IS SPIRITUAL, NOT CARNAL (FLESHLY).
The principles of the New Testament cannot be lived and demonstrated to the world when we are allowing the world to set the agenda.
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