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PAGE 14 DISCUSSION ON CHRISTIAN NONVIOLENCE
Response from "C"
Teacher
Nov 14, 2002 8:25:55 am
Questions have arisen in my mind as promiselander has discussed the issue of dispensations. It seems that we have now established that war was God's will under the Law and that it will be His will again in the next dispensation, but we are expected to believe that God has chosen a couple thousand years in between when He is not in favor of His people being involved in armed conflict.
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Response from promiselander
Nov 14, 2002 10:58:02 am
Bro. L, you said,
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I only question if a member of the church could step outside that role and do something as a member of the state. Not every action is on behalf of and in the name of the church. Just because I am fishing doesn't mean the church is involved in fishing, and likewise, just because I am involved in a war doesn't mean the church is involved in that war.
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You have hit upon a major difference in the way I see things from so many in here. I do not have a section of my life which is separated to the State and disconnected in any fashion from the Church or from the gospel of peace. There are private areas of my life but there are not any separate areas.
Maybe it is because of my ecclesiology. I accept the New Testament model of the Church BEING the Body of Christ. I believe we are Christ to this world. I believe we are to do as He would do and be as He would be. I am sorry, but I cannot see Jesus serving in any worldly army. I cannot see Him taking up arms for one State against another State. And before you tell me that Jesus is God and therefore since God takes actions against States, therefore Jesus would do it also...let me say; Yes, Jesus is God, but He is God the Son. There were things which were true of His Person which were not true of the Father's Person. The Son was born of the virgin Mary, the Father was not born of the virgin Mary; the Son died, the Father did not die; the Son was raised from the dead, the Father was not raised from the dead. Yes, the Son will one day wage war and wipe out His enemies, but that is not in this dispensation. Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father making intercession for us. With the record of His life, and His teachings, and the record of the rest of the New Testament as my foundation, I therefore say, I cannot see Jesus taking up arms in this world system to go forth to kill those for whom He died. Jesus would not bear arms in this present evil world. He came to give life, not take it. He came to be the Sacrifice, not the Judge. He came to be the Savior, not the Executioner. Since I believe Jesus would not bear carnal weapons in this present time, I cannot bear carnal weapons either since I am part of His Body. I am to do as Jesus would do.
There is another side to this Body life issue. Since I am a member of His Body (ALL THE TIME), whatever I do impacts the other members of His Body. My recreations, my fashions, my entertainments, my occupation, my relationships, my economics, my politics all impact the Body of Christ. I believe this is why the Church is in such disrepair. People live as if they have areas which are separate from the Body. We do not. We may live like a deseased part of the Body, or a weak part of the Body, but good or bad, right or wrong, we are parts of His Body and members of one another. Therefore I could never take up arms to kill a brother who serves in an enemy military force. I am called to a higher standard than that. And yes, there have been many great men who have killed their fellow man and even their Christian brothers in the name of the State, but maybe that is because they did not have me as their pastor (or someone like me) rather than because they were doing the right thing. We cannont assume that when a Christian soldier killed, he was doing the right thing. Sometimes Christians do wrong things. We cannot assume that it was the right thing to do just because the Christian did it and never denounced it. Jesus is the standard, not Robert E. Lee or any other great man who has killed his brother.
What would the Church be like in the world today if it lived by this standard? Would we have greater impact for winning the lost? Would our prayers stay the hand of the enemy? Would we see the power of God far beyond what we are seeing today? We are not seeing the power of God because we are not seeing the New Testament Body of Christ live by New Testament standards.
You have basically said that you would not be bothered if an enemy soldier were to kill you or your family because they were acting under orders. I guess I have not yet attained to that level of magnanimity. Though I certainly am called to love my enemy and forgive my enemy, there is no way in this world that I will say I don't have a problem with some flunky killing people at the behest of some monster. If that is the case we should give medals to the Japanese who sneak attacked Pearl Harbor...ooops, I forgot, we did give them medals. Well, you get my point.
Jesus is my head in all things, not just "spiritual or ecclesiastical" things. Paul said,
"Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all." Ephesians 1:20-23
Paul said, "Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:"
This includes the governments of this world. Nothing stands between me and Jesus. No power commands my allegiance. And this is supposed to be true in every Christian's life becasue He has become Head of all things to the Church, which is His Body.
Read the whole passage again and again.
Thanx for the interaction. Have a great day in Him.
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Response from promiselander
Nov 14, 2002 11:58:08 am
Bro. J, let me try to clear up something right away. I don't recall saying that you were enlisted. If I did it was not a reference to your rank, but to your joining up. I did say that you "joined up." I realize you are not an "enlisted man" because you are at the Academy, (which is an accomplishment in itself for which you should be commended). However, you are a man under authority and will continue to be until you sit in the Oval Office. Between you and that Commander in Chief there are many other chiefs. There are many others to whom you will be subordinate. There have always been monsters with rank, there are still monsters with rank and there will continue to be monsters with rank. Therefore it is not unlikely you will be called upon to do something which defames Christ rather than glorifies Him.
Bro. J said,
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whenever I am ordered to do something that is unethical, it is my responsibility as a commissioned officer to refuse to obey an such an order.
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We have a problem Houston. What you consider to be unethical may not be what is legally unethical. What you consider to be unethical may be a lawful order. And even if you are given an order which you refuse to obey, you are still going to put your men in jeopardy. You see, I know what "an Army of one" means, I was being facitious at that point in my last post. And since an Army of one,
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fight(s) together as one unit, coordinating the individual talents of a vast array of personnel into a one branch with one mission...
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then it is imperative that there be no breakdown in the ranks. You must be of one mind, which is a Biblical directive for the Church. It is not possible to be of one mind with the world. They have objectives which are counter-productive to the objectives of Christ. Yes, you will have occasions when you will find the orders of the State conflict with your Bible beliefs. That is why you must choose this day whom you will serve. If the State, then the State. If God, then God. You and I both know that you cannot serve both fully. I suggest that it is better to make your choice in the cool of peace rather than in the heat of battle.
You said,
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I know that this is contrary to your interpretation of Scripture, but like the soldiers that were saved under John the Baptist, the centurions in the New Testament, and the scores of other Christian military men in history, I am prepared to give and take life whenever it is necessary to do so.
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Let me ask you a question. Knowing what you know, would you drive the nails into His hands and feet if it was a "lawful order?" Would you round up the Jews for the death camps in Germany if it was a "lawful order?" Will you be obeying the State when they have you take action against me and other followers of Christ if it is a "lawful order?" I suggest that many lawful orders are awful orders which should be disobeyed. I suggest that we should not put ourselves in position to follow awful orders. If the Commander in Chief turned the White House into a playhouse for perverts and he didn't know the meaning of "IS", he certainly does not have the right to set my standards of ethics. You are the servant to whom you obey.
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Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?" Romans 6:16
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One more for this post. You said to me,
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You fail to remember that the military is designed to prevent war, not cause it. By positioning ourselves as a strong nation that will punish evildoers if necessary, we have avoided war with Russia, China, and overall greatly promoted world peace.
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I don't know exactly where you get your intelligence report on what I remember, but it is faulty. I am not anti-military. I am not against the State bearing the sword to protect the righteous and punish the wicked. I am pointing out that God has a higher path for Christians than being the instruments of wrath.
Brother, I am not judging you or our brother airman. I am believing the best about you and your commitment to Jesus, as I hope you are about me. I am trusting that you are walking in all of the light you have and that you will continue to do so. I am just offering what I believe to be a more excellent way.
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