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PAGE 12 DISCUSSION ON CHRISTIAN NONVIOLENCE
Response from "LD"
Sr./Bible College
Nov 13, 2002 5:48:17 pm
Promiselander,
It's good to have you back so I have someone to respond too. (Ever notice how hard it is to discuss something when everyone agrees on the major points?)
I do believe another faulty premise of your argument is the seperation of church and state as a divine right and perfect dichotomy to be observed for all time and in every place. You clearly agree that the state is not wrong in being violent and killing, and you state that the church is not to be violent at all. I strongly agree with both you and the Word of God on both issues. I only question if a member of the church could step outside that role and do something as a member of the state. Not every action is on behalf of and in the name of the church. Just because I am fishing doesn't mean the church is involved in fishing, and likewise, just because I am involved in a war doesn't mean the church is involved in that war. I hope this clarifies my position a bit and I am not labelled a heretic for asking people to leave the church to fight. That's not what I am saying.
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Response from "JV"
usarmycadet
Nov 13, 2002 5:51:57 pm
Promiselander, whenever I am ordered to do something that is unethical, it is my responsibility as a commissioned officer to refuse to obey an such an order. I happen to know, because I am taught these things everyday. I believe that it is humorous that you are attempting to correct me in that which I am drilled in by my instructors.
Remember, I am not enlisted I am training to be an officer in the U.S. Military. U.S. Army officers are expected to lead their men in an ethical manner at all time.
As far as killing is concerned, I fully expect to have to kill in battle one day. It is part of my profession, and I am voluntarily going into combat arms, the part of the Army that does the actual fighting. I know that this is contrary to your interpretation of Scripture, but like the soldiers that were saved under John the Baptist, the centurions in the New Testament, and the scores of other Christian military men in history, I am prepared to give and take life whenever it is necessary to do so.
Don't take me wrong. Human life is sacred, and war is a horrible thing to take part in. It is, however, part of the human existence. If it were not for the moral restraint that is to be found in government, there would be Hitlers, Stalins, rapists, murderers, and all sorts of other varmits running wild throughout the world. There already are of course, but without government, life on earth would be total chaos and anarchy.
You fail to remember that the military is designed to prevent war, not cause it. By positioning ourselves as a strong nation that will punish evildoers if necessary, we have avoided war with Russia, China, and overall greatly promoted world peace.
As far as the "Army of One," we fight together as one unit, coordinating the individual talents of a vast array of personnel into a one branch with one mission, to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.
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Response from "LD"
Sr./Bible College
Nov 13, 2002 6:04:34 pm
Also (since I accidentally posted that last one), there is the issue of personal conviction that you mentioned. I do believe we are all operating from personal conviction: the things we are convinced that the Bible says. So please don't be bothered by us calling your position a personal conviction. I do believe you find Biblical support for your position and I respect you taking your stand on that, I just happen to see other points of emphasis within the Word and take issue with your interpretation.
I do believe we should be peacemakers and love everyone and seek to do no ill to our neighbors, but in the event that peace is not present, I see myself as having more of a responsibility to help my state carry out its God-given mandate than to my own wishes to see peace maintained and no violence done. I do not love my brother the less for him being a representative of his government, and the nature of my violence would not be personal or hateful. Many horrible things would happen (death, destruction, hayhem, psychological damage, etc.), but these are side effects of my government's struggle against his, not my personal aims against individuals.
Also, you keep asking for a Biblical apology for Christians killing. I offered the abscence of condemnation of killing, God's mandate for governments to kill, and our command to obey the government. These working in tandem make me believe that in the event of a war, I personally cannot refuse to be a soldier if the government calls on me to fulfill that role. You present Scriptures dealing with the church's non-violent nature, love, and peacefullness, but nowhere is there a clear NT command against all killing. Thus it comes down to a matter of determining which set of principles take priority in a given situation.
The NT gives nothing that I can find that would tip the balance in any direction. The OT, however, gives major insight into the nature of God and His dealings with men, and I believe in light of the first 2/3rds of God's Word that I have to go with the set of principles involving direct commands that relate directly to the issue at hand. That, in brief, is why I hold the position that I do.
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Response from "JV"
usarmycadet
Nov 13, 2002 6:10:58 pm
Just to clear things up, for those who may not know,
an enlisted person is someone who signs up to work for the Army, kind of like a worker would show up to get a job at a factory or Wal-Mart. Enlisted personnel are by far the most important people in the military because they are the ones with all the experience and are the people who actually get the job done.
An officer is like a manager in the store. He has to go to college first, and is expected to be a leader that makes good decisions. As an officer, one has a lot more say in what he does or does not do because he is the one who issues the orders in the first place.
Good job lwd1! Good job, promiselander, on a fair, clean, and well thought out debate.
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Response from promiselander
Nov 13, 2002 7:14:07 pm
Bro. A, I will try to answer some of your points.
Bro. A said,
quote:
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!!!!!literally think about what youre actually saying!!!And to not use force to defend YOUR OWN WIFE or flesh and blood children!!! Come on sir, he that knoweth to do good(protect/defend the innocent for example) and doeth it not, to him IT IS sin!!!!!
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I have thought about it...for about 10 years as one who took the violence position and about 30 years from the nonviolent position. And I have thought about it with Bible in hand and on my knees. It is something which other men, with more dynamic faith and service than mine, have thought about. My point of view is that obedience is better than sacrifice. If I know that I should not act in violence and then I do it, it would be sin. Take note also, I am not accusing anyone else of sin simply because the do not walk in the same light in which I walk.
Please take note...I have not claimed that those who are acting in behalf of the State in obedience to God are commiting sin. I have not said that other believers who do not have the same light I have on this issue are commiting sin. Why would you draw the sword of condemnation on a brother who is seeking to follow God fully? If what I say is not accurate, then continue to serve God in your own capacity and pray for me to be delivered from my confusion. If what I say is true for some believers, do not be a stumbling block to those who need to hear it. If what I say is true for all, then you need to do more study than criticizing.
Bro. A said,
quote:
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Furthermore, in one of your earlier posts/conversations when confronted with a scenario about what you would do if your wife or daughter or even, lets say, your 6 month old baby were being raped or murdered that you would call the police. What if you didnt have tear gas or a phone or anything else to assist you...
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It was a joke.
Bro. A said,
quote:
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...would you REALLY stand by and watch or actually use whatever force/violent action neccessary. I think we all know what someone would do in that case....you included.
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Two problems here, I never said what I would do, I never said I would just stand by and NO! you don't know what someone would do since there have been many who have trusted God far more than you can even imagine. Many have trusted in the Lord and not in the arm of flesh and in horses and chariots. I have found it is better keep silence on things I have not studied. I have found that there are areas of the Christian life which I have not experienced and therefore tend to listen to those who have studied or experienced these things.
Bro. A, just because you do not understand something does not mean that it is unthinkable or even wrong. There are so many errors in your attack on me and my position that it is not even funny, it is sad. Unhappily, you are not showing an interest in having an exchange of ideas as much as an exchange in insults.
Bro. A said,
quote:
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I am in the military(U.S. Air Force) and serve as a combatant which means that everyone who serves in the military carries weapons and is trained to kill IF NECCESSARY(chaplains and medical personnel excluded according to the Geneva Conventions L.O.A.C.(Law Of Armed Conflict).
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You might want to pass that info on to Bro. JV.
I am not offended by strongly worded statements. When they are accompanied with accuracy I am impressed. When SWS's are riddled with fallacy I am amused.
I certainly do not want to give away any military secrets, but I think it is fair to guess you are enlisted and not an officer.
I like down to earth, pragmatic conversations. I appreciate your enthusiasm. I appreciate your statement of love and blessing. I think we can accomplish more by examining the evidence rather than trying to discredit the witnesses. I think there is much more waiting for those who dig into the message rather than digging into the messenger. Easy answers are easy to come by but they don't stand up under difficult testing.
I do not expect that my down-to-earth approach turns you off. I would imagine that both you and Bro. J. have plenty of grit. It takes courage to be willing to put your life on the line for you country. It takes more than courage to stick to the difficult task of becoming a good Soldier, Airman, Marine or Sailor. In spite of what you might think my position is, I do respect and apprciate men of courage, honor and loyalty, whether they wear the uniform or not.
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Response from promiselander
Nov 13, 2002 7:43:05 pm
Bro. L, as long as I am around, you are probably safe from being called an heretic. It would behoove everyone in this discussion group to keep me around, I make everybody look good.
Although I have to admit, a wave of fright swept over me when I read your post. You and I are actually agreeing on something. (Psst...listen up...I won't tell anyone if you won't).
I have just read the previous four posts and I am eager to respond.
No one asked, but I think that this discussion is good for more that just the exchange of info on the subject. I think we are having a good opportunity to use our biggest guns and take a few shots while we are at it. It is much better to have such a confrontation with brothers than with others. This forum can help equipe us for those times. The principles we are covering are more than just points about nonviolence.
I must go for now, but as General MacArthur said, "I shall return."
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