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PAGE 11 DISCUSSION ON CHRISTIAN NONVIOLENCE
Response from promiselander
Nov 13, 2002 7:42:28 am
Bro. R, thank you for your concern. I am very careful to post what I believe to be the definite truth of God. At the same time, if they are my personal convictions, they are based upon what I believe to be the definite truth of God. There is no doubt in my mind that you do the same. Our integrity or honorable intentions are not suspect here, but rather our understanding of what God says.
The thoughts I share with y'all are not off of the top of my head and they are not without some Biblical or theological foundation and historical support. According to others, my understanding is wrong, however, I am sharing what I believe to be valid and basing it on what I believe to be sound hermeneutics.
Please tell me specifically to which statement you are referring. Also, please refute it from the New Testament. We may not agree, but at least we will discover that we both are basing our beliefs on what we believe the New Testatment says.
Up to this point I have been accused of using personal convictions as my arguments. Actually, I have used New Testament. You may believe that my understanding is faulty by that is different from it just being a personal conviction. On the other hand, I keep asking people to give the New Testament apology for Christian violence and killing and what I get back is, Old Testament passages, extra Biblical philosophy and peoples own beliefs (personal convictions), because there is no New Testament apology for Christian violence and killing.
There are possibly five different mindsets in this discussion (if not sharing, maybe lurking).
1. Those who are fully persuaded that there is a New Testament apology against Christian violence and killing.
2. Those who are fully persuaded that there is no New Testament apology against Christian violence and killing.
3. Those who are fully persuaded that there is no New Testament apology for Christian nonviolence and killing.
4. Those who are convinced that they are right and are not interested in discussing a New Testament position on Christian violence and killing.
5. Those who are at least asking themselves what the New Testament has to say about Christian violence and killing.
There has been no problem getting us "know-it-alls" to spill our brains, (not much of a mess on my part at least). However, those who are not sure are understandably tentative. But, if I say anything which causes someone to view any portion of Scripture differently than you had previously, let me know. If anyone has questions on this issue which they do not want to post publicly, I would be glad to respond by email. My profile has the info.
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Response from promiselander
Nov 13, 2002 3:54:24 pm
Bro. JW, your original question about assasinations was a good one. Since I only registered with COGH discussion board at the end of October, I came in while the issue of Christian nonviolence was being questioned. Being I have traveled that rout in my own spiritual pilgrimage, I thought I would share from my perspective.
I would love to talk in depth about the concept of a "just war." Though JUST WAR is not a New Testament term it is certainly a part of Christian Theology and has impacted those in Christendom. So, when and if you start that discussion, let me know and I will do battle in the name of nonviolence (hee hee hee).
In our discussion, the Just War has been mentioned, but it has not been the singular qualifier for Christian participation in war. Most of the argument has been for the obedience of Christians to the State regardless of the Just or Righteous stance of said government. I have argued that Christians are subject to a Higher Law and must not participate whether the cause is Just or not. I think it is fair to state the three positions held in this discussion on this point as follows.
1. Christians either can or must support the State in a Just War (others in here).
2. Christians must obey their State in war whether it is a Just War or not (at least your position).
3. Christians must not kill or act violently in any sitution (as the masses stand in enthusiastic support) (smile).
There has been no argument that the State has a right to wage war when fulfilling it's God appointed task of protecting the righteous and punishing the wicked. I agree with that. The disagreement is with the New Testament directive to Christians involvement in killing and violence. The Church has no "God given right to wage war" and, I contend, neither do Christians. There is no argument in this group about the State having the right to wage war. There are some Believers who denounce all war.
As far as the Book of Revelation is concerned, where do you see
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Revelation makes it clear that killing for a "just" cause is in God's plan.
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I realize you went on to say that Jesus will eventually
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...be involved in seeing all evil men killed.
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I am guessing this is in reference to His return? If that is the case, I would agree, with eschatalogical qualifyers. However, what happens in the Book of Revelation after chapter 3 is not applicable to the Church age and can not be used as an apology for Christian action any more than the Old Testament standards placed upon the Israelites. I believe that the Ceremonial Law was binding in the Old Testament, I do not believe it is today.
You go on to say,
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Therefore, we should remember that God may use us to "remove" people who are evil even today so that more people can know of His love for them and have an opportunity to receive eternal life.
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You cannot prove that position by the New Testament. Yes, I know that the book of Revelation is in the New Testament, but it is dealing primarily with the Tribulation and Great Tribulation Period and that is not the same as the Church Age or dispensation. I believe we are probably agreed on this.
If it were a simple issue, we would not disagree. What I am doing, in my feeble way, is trying to show that the New Testament calls Christians to be peacemakers, to do no ill to his neighbor, to do to others as we would have them do to us. I do not believe this would include killing others. Yes I recognize the right of the State to bear the sword. And No! from my perspective I am not contradicting myself.
Thanks for coming back into the discussion. I enjoy meeting different members of the COGH family and the W's family as well. Your Dad has been very kind to let me be part of this fellowship and your brother B is doing a great job with this site.
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Response from promiselander
Nov 13, 2002 4:09:28 pm
Well, I am almost caught up, I hope to hear from y'all soon.
Bro. JV told me,
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One thing that you fail to realize, promislander, is that being in the military does not automatically mean you are a killer.
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Unless you are a noncombatant, when you join up, you are agreeing to kill for your country. Again, this is not an indictment on those who are part of the military. It is simply a statement of fact. It would appear that you must have missed that class or you haven't had that class yet. When you strap on the weapons of war, you are EXPECTED TO USE THEM WHEN AND WHERE YOU ARE COMMANDED. Your country expects it, your superiors expect it and your comrads in arms expect it. I would challange you to ask any of your instructors at the Academy if I am right. I, for one, would not want to fight next to a person who will decide in a moment of conflict if he accepts the order as fitting into his belief system.
Bro. JV said,
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If I am every ordered to participate in an action which violates my biblical beliefs, I can and will back out of it.
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You scare me. I wouldn't know when I could trust you to be there in a firefight. What if the orders violate your Biblical beliefs? At least with my position, I would not lead my fellow warriors into believing that I would be there at all cost. Excuse me, but I don't believe you would say the same things to others in your squad or platoon. Then again, I could be wrong, after all you are part of the modern "Army of one." Most of my dealings are with the United States Marine Corp. and I know they count on each other no matter what they face. My understanding about warfare, whether carnal or spiritual, is that we ought to be totally commited to our Commander and Chief. Your's is a conditional commitment to the military and mine is unconditional to Jesus. If your's is total commitment to Jesus, it cannot be total commitment to the military and that is what makes you a danger to your fellow soldiers.
For those who think I am being unkind or unfair, I am just shooting straight. And I am not telling the cadet anything his instructors wouldn't tell him if he presented them with this same scenario...and they would not be as kind as I am. What kind of an army are we talking about which allows the soldiers to make personal decisions in the midst of battle.
Bro. JV said,
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It seems that you have a very unrealistic dream world that you live in.
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It is unfortunate that we cannot sit down and talk to each other face to face. I would like to know more about the world you live in and you need to know what world I live in before you call it a dream world. So many are making assumptions about what I consider to be realistic, about my understanding of these issues. The problem is not my perception of reality but my understanding of Scripture.
I am disappointed that you have chosen to attack to the rear. I would think that you would enjoy a good philosophical skirmish. But then again, that may be a good tactical decision, "Those who fight and run away live to fight another day"...besides, the Air Force is still here.
OOORAH
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