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PAGE 19 DISCUSSION ON NONVIOLENCE
Response from "LD"
Sr./Bible College
Nov 19, 2002 7:22:25 pm
Brother Promiselander,
(I have no problem calling you brother even though your theology is a bit off. Whose isn't off in some regard?)
And on the gun thing (which is off topic), it becomes a matter of deciding which law is higher, the constitution or lesser laws.
On the issue of Jesus saying we had to give to Caesar, He put no direct limits except to say the God is the first and foremost authority. My only question is where you find it so clearly stated that war and killing are in that area of disobeying God.
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Response from "K.As."
Bible College graduate
Nov 19, 2002 9:40:41 pm
I guess I ought to put in my two cents. I guess I have to disagree with both "sides" a little bit on this issue. I definitely believe that God allows us to use physical/lethal(as a last option) force. However, I do not agree that we can Biblically use that force because the State tells us to. I believe from Scripture that we are to use force to protect others from random/meditated evil(i.e. rape, domestic violence, terrorist activities). However, we do not fight these evil people because they are enemies of the State, but because they agents of Satan. Like I said, I think violence should be an absolute last option, but in our world it must be used sometimes!
Promiselander, I agree that we should commit both our souls and our bodies into the hands of God, but who is not to say that you ARE someone's answer to prayer against an evil person?! If God led me down a dark alley where a woman was being raped and robbed I would probably assume that God had a job for me to do for Him!
I (and I think everyone else on this discussion) share your view about not separating the sacred from the secular. However, we are applying our philosophy/theology differently. I can't quite put my finger on it, but it is definitely there. My view would say that my vocation is to be a Christian and a "discipler of nations". My job is simply how I make a living. Does that make sense? I will try to apply this to our discussion in another post sometime. Anyhow, I definitely believe that there is no dichotomy between the sacred and the secular.
I don't expect anyone to reply to any of this because you all have more circular argumentation to attend to!
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Response from "JV"
usarmycadet
Nov 19, 2002 11:30:49 pm
HOOAH!! SRA Jackson. It is good to interact with another Christian military man. The Academy is pretty tough, but I am getting used to it. It's too bad the Air Force Academy beat us the other day, but congratulations anyway.
I'm glad to hear that you are involved as a Chaplain's Assistant. I will branch combat arms, hopefully Combat Engineer attached to Infantry or Armor, but it is good to know you guys are backing us up. From what I have seen, military chaplains have been doing an excellent job and are instrumental in getting hundreds of people saved. I know that back in Basic Training when everyone was about to die from the smoking and hazing, a lot of my friends got saved. Rated as one of the most praying schools in America, West Point has many cadets with strong religious backgrounds. It is encourageing to have these fellow Christians serving with me. One ministry that is very effective here is the Officer's Christian Fellowship. We have small group Bible studies and this enables us to build new Christians up in the faith as well as to strengthen and maintain the older guys to keep on fighting the good fight. On the other hand, there are some pretty rotten individuals here, but you get that anywhere.
"PRO DEO et PATRIA!" HOOAH!
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Response from promiselander
Nov 20, 2002 2:07:15 am
Bro. A, I do appreciate your 11/19/02 @11:31am post. It seems that you have put a little more effort in trying to understand what I am saying, and I believe that is important for us to do. Let me tell you a little story (hey y'all...don't go to sleep on me now).
I love music. I love to listen to good music and I would love to be able to perform good music. I can sing well enough to lead singing when needed, but I do not sing parts. I listen for my part, but have a really hard time finding it. I really try hard. But it is like 9th grade algebra, it just didn't come to me and it didn't make sense. I watch others and listen to them and they seem to pick up on the harmony and they can look at the sheet music and go right to where their voice needs to be to hit the right note. I can read a little music, but I just cannot translate those little black marks on the paper into beautiful music. I want to be a blessing in the music presentation of our Church, but I feel so inadequate. My wife is my biggest fan, and she along with my children try to encourage me. Our music director also tries to help but I just can't do what I would like to do musically. I can carry a tune, but I just can't make my voice sing like I want. I feel so disappointed. Not for my own shortcoming but rather because I would like to help our little Church glorify God in song. Hopefully, soon we will have the men needed to carry the music program and I will not need to try to help in this area of our Church ministry. Now before someone tells me anything about music or ministry or my place as Pastor, realize, this post does not have anything to do with music. It is an illustration...based on actual conditions...but it is an illustration.
It is possible that someone can see, hear, understand, grasp something about a subject with which others are having difficulty. I KNOW, YOU ARE RIGHT AND I AM WRONG... BUT YOU CAN'T EVEN SEEM TO UNDERSTAND WHAT I AM SAYING. YOU ARE CONSTANTLY MISSING MY POINTS. I have the same problem with music. Others can hit the notes, or find the notes but I sometimes sing off by an entire octave and it sounds right to me. However, I have learned not to criticize those who can sing just because it is beyond my ability. Also, those who understand music and can perform music are very patient with me and they do not disown or discount me because I have not yet arrived at their level of comprhension or performance. As a matter of fact, they listen to me when I offer ideas on how a piece should be performed, not because I am accomplished in music, but because I understand ministry and I understand the place of music in ministry. But I still can't get it like they do.
I keep telling you things which you deny even though you are not understanding what I am saying. It is like talking to a Jehovah Witness. We tell them that we do not believe in three gods and in their next breath they are saying that we believe in three gods. No matter how many times we tell them the truth about our belief, they never seem to get it.
I keep telling you that war and violence are a necessary evil. As sickness is a necessary evil. As death is a necessary evil. Death was brought about because of man's sin. Sickness was brought about because of man's sin. War and violence were brought about because of man's sin. This is what James said and I was agreeing with him and found myself being accused (though in a loving way) of heresy. With all due respect to Bro. Larry, James is not just speaking about problems in the Church or within the spirit of an individual person. He is saying that war and killing comes from a wisdom which is earthly, sensual, devilish and from the lusts which war in our members. Yes, it does include the spiritual battles that individuals experience, but it extends to the most extreme expressions of these manifestations as well. Not only does my understanding of this passage fit, anything less does not fit the meaning of this passage and the rest of the Word of God. We don't have to sanctify war just because God uses it to accomplish His purposes. We don't have to sanctify violence just because God uses it to accomplish His purposes. We don't have to sanctify the wicked man or evil nation just because God uses them to accomplish His purposes. I realize that people do not see what I am saying, and they do not agree with my position, but some of the things you criticize in my statements are probably some of the same things which your own highly esteemed men of God have taught and preached and which you yourselves say in a different context. It's just that you do not see it in the context I present it and you end up discarding the whole truth.
We have not even scratched the surface of Mt. 17 or 22 or Ro. 13. I am telling you that there are things in those passages which are waiting to be discovered by those who are seeking all of God's truth. But if we know it all now, we will never learn any more tomorrow. I have much to learn and I venture, so do you. But if we have made up our minds to never open our hearts to anything which is strange to us, we will not go any deeper than we are right now. I am not suggesting disregarding the Word of God, the Old Paths, the basics concerning God and Salvation. But when the reformation took place, the Reformationist only grasped a little of what the Word had to say. With each succeeding generation there have been great truths of the Word rediscovered by those who wanted to go farther than the previous saints. Great truths of God which were set aside during the Roman Catholic period and during the Dark Ages and during the times of Luther and Knox and even Wesley are still being rediscovered in the Word. The truths have always been there, but we have not always been open to those truths. Often times it is because we refuse to move beyond the point of our beloved leadership. In all reality, our leadership probably would have moved further along if they had lived long enough. Those pioneers of the faith rediscovered the workings of the Holy Spirit, the beauty of holiness, the call to missions, the nature of worship, the need for social action in the name of Jesus, the possibility of Church renewal and growth without compromising the other truths we have learned, the meaning of eschatological passages. And they rediscovered those truths while others cried, "Foul." I contend that I might be sharing a truth which others who love God and honor His Word have rediscovered.
I KNOW, YOU DO NOT BELIEVE THAT I AM RIGHT. BUT MAYBE I AM SAYING SOMETHING WHICH IS RIGHT AND YOU ARE NOT EVEN GOING TO HEAR IT. YOU ARE NOT EVEN HEARING WHAT I AM SAYING.
It is like a person from the cold north lands trying to explain to people in the tropics what ice is if they have never seen or heard of a freeze. No, don't let me or anyone else lead you astray, but don't miss what God might have for you just because you already know all the answers.
You see, even if I answer all of your questions, if you really are not willing to listen and learn and look beyond your present realm of understanding, I will never be able to communicate to you what I have found...nor will anyone else unless they come from within your own small sphere of friends. We must be firm in our faith and not blown about by every wind of doctrine, but we must not be provincial or stuck in a time frame. We must always be seeking to get back to the faith of the New Testament. We are not there yet and we won't be as long as we are satisfied with modern, western Chritianity instead of New Testament faith and life.
I will come back and speak to some of your specifics, but I wanted to get this off tonight. I suppose you may very well argue with what I have said in this post. I hope not.
Oh, and by the way, I am sorry I misspelled KCCBS in an earlier post, my mistake.
I do appreciate all of the participation and response from y'all.
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