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PAGE 15 DISCUSSION ON CHRISTIAN NONVIOLENCE
Response from "AJ"
SrAirman/corp.USAF
Nov 14, 2002 12:41:00 pm
To promiselander.......I would love to still hear a specific response from you regarding an answer as to what you would do in the specific scenarios that i presented to you in my last posting. If I understand you correctly, you believe that any sort of strong/powerful/forceful/violent type of action(even up to and including cause of death) to defend innocent and afflicted individuals is forever considered by Jesus as wrong/sinful. If this is correct and in order to remain CONSISTENT with your own beliefs, I can also deduce that you would then never under any circumstance whatsoever call the police forces to assist you in any of the types of scenarios that I left with you on my last posting(or any similar circumstance) because by doing so would cause yourself and the police forces to quite possibly involve yourselves in the sin of violent action(because police are always armed with loaded weapons and use them); simply for the fact that(according to the Bible) a sin is a sin, regardless if it is commited by a Christin or a nonbliever! Is this true, sir, yes or no? Waiting to hear back from you on my 2 postings. Again, no offense at all intended here, just pat answers. Thank you Sir and God bless you! Sincerely, A. J.
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Response from "LD"
Sr./Bible College
Nov 14, 2002 3:19:10 pm
Promiselander,
Thank you for spelling out your beliefs in such a concise way. I find that I believe much the same as you do on most of teh items you stated. I even firmly believe in Christian non-violence (although we obviously define this somewhat differently). I totally agree with not using violence for murder, self-defense, or in trying to build God's kingdom.
I also agree with you in your reply where you said that we are always a member of the body of Christ. I have a very stong body life ideal that comes from Scripture, and the impression I gave was exactly the one I wanted to avoid. My point is not that we are not a part of the body in certain contexts, but that as members of teh body, we have been given very stringent guidelines. The first and foremost of these is to show Christ's love and make disciples. I view these as one and the same since they are so interconnected. Another guideline is to obey the authorities placed over us. You agree to the point of supporting our government in its killing, but not to the point of participating as its agent.
I can make no such distinction. In a military situation (since several are in that situation) is a Christian allowed to kill? You seem to be saying "no". Are Christians then not to join the military, or if they get saved "inside" to quit? I think not. It would be better for Christians in the military to spread their faith there in accordance with God's command. They might have to kill if they are ordered to, but that is not violating any command that I have seen. It seems that demonstrating God's love within the military is a higher command than to avoid killing (which isn't a command at all).
I very stongly agree with your statements that Christ is the Head at all times and we are to submit entirely to His authority. I just wonder where you find that obeying the government comes between you and Christ (since He commands that very thing)?
I still do not see where you get your strong biblical backing for your position that it is wrong for Christians to kill. The only command in the NT regarding killing is directed to governments, and that is an affirmative command. Where Christians are told not to....?
You have said
quote:
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* I don't believe God wants ANYONE to kill anyone else.
HOWEVER (and that is a big however), because of the wickedness of man;
* I believe that God has made provision for the State to protect the righteous and punish the wicked.
* I believe we are responsible to obey and support our government when it does not cause us to personally disobey God.
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I just don't see where obeying the government/military in killing is disobeying God. If God tells me not to kill, then I can see your point. But where does God tell us that?
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Response from promiselander
Nov 14, 2002 3:34:50 pm
I have read the two previous posts and want to reply, but I will have to get back to you later.
However, to be perfectly honest, I cannot understand Bro. Allen's problem. If anyone else thinks that you understand my position, would you let me know, or have I left everyone in the dark? Of course I don't offer pat answers, but I really can't see why you couldn't understand what I said earlier. I will try to make it clearer for you soon.
Below I have listed what I believe is a representation of the various positions which might be in the discussion.
WE HOLD VARYING DEGREES OF NONVIOLENCE (FOCUS ON KILLING) IN THIS GROUP. I WILL LIST SEVERAL DIFFERENT POSITIONS (REALIZING THAT NONE OF US KNOWS WHAT WE WILL ACTUALLY DO WHEN FACED WITH ANY GIVEN SCENARIO).
* SOME WILL NOT KILL AT ALL, IN SELF DEFENSE, DEFENSE OF OTHERS, OR AT THE BEHEST OF THE STATE, THROUGH.POLICE ACTION, EXECUTIONS OR MILITARY ACTIONS.
* SOME WILL NOT KILL IN SELF DEFENSE BUT WILL KILL TO SAVE OTHERS.
* SOME WILL NOT KILL UNLESS DIRECTED TO KILL BY THE STATE.
* SOME WILL NOT KILL CIVILIANS OR JEWS WHEN TOLD TO DO SO BY THE STATE BUT WILL KILL OTHERS.
* SOME WILL NOT KILL IF IT CONFLICTS WITH THEIR BIBLE BELIEFS (?).
* AND I SUPPOSE SOME HOLD TO THE MOTTO, "KILL 'EM ALL AND LET GOD DO THE SORT'N."
This is not just a gap filler. I will come back to it later.
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Response from "C"
Teacher/Former Navy
Nov 15, 2002 8:05:04 am
I understand your view on police action. You think it would be wrong for you to act in violence against a perpetrator, but that it would not be wrong to call a policeman, because hopefully the policeman is not a Christian, and is acting only as an agent of the state.
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Response from "LD"
Sr./Bible College
Nov 15, 2002 5:45:12 pm
I think you made your position very clear, but I am wondering why non-Christians are told to do something Christians can't. Are there any other double standards in the Bible? And I still don't see a prohibition of killing anywhere (and I have looked very closely and carefully).
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Response from promiselander
Nov 15, 2002 8:39:46 pm
I know it looks like I have taken a vow of silence, but I really do appreciate the input from y'all. It helps me see where I have made myself clear and where I need to improve my communication. I thought I would give others a chance to respond if they wanted, and then the Lord willing, I will respond shortly. I am not telling you that you will be impressed with my response when I do give it, but I wanted you to know that I, "Don't give up the ship" as Capt. James Lawrence said before his death in a naval battle off of Boston. (Unhappily his ship was defeated by a British vessle......But I have higher hopes than that.)
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