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PAGE 10 DISCUSSION ON CHRISTIAN NONVIOLENCE
Response from "JW"
Pastor/
Posted: Nov 10, 2002 6:23:35 pm
Thought I would weigh in on the discussion since I started this topic some months ago...
First, let me just say that I believe that if much of this discussion is with the idea that the US will likely attack Iraq and Saddam Hussein, then we have a just cause. I believe that we will eventually find out for certain that this evil dictatorship was very much involved in the September 11 attacks. Even if this fails to prove true, we do know for a fact that Hussein sponsors and wholeheartedly supports terrorism against the United States and Israel.
Second, I must point out to promiselander that our discussion has to be about a "just" war if we are talking about killing people as Christians. I think the other writers on this thread assumed that we were talking about a "just" war. Of course killing people with no purpose or for an evil cause is wrong. That is why it is not okay for another government to attack us just because they don't like us and the freedoms we enjoy. On the other hand, protecting our families is a "just" cause and therefore we have that God-given right to wage war against those who would take that away from us.
Third, Revelation makes it clear that killing for a "just" cause is in God's plan. In fact, eventually Jesus Christ Himself will be involved in seeing all evil men killed. Therefore, we should remember that God may use us to "remove" people who are evil even today so that more people can know of His love for them and have an opportunity to receive eternal life.
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Response from "JV"
usarmycadet
Nov 10, 2002 7:22:37 pm
Of all people, I, who have studied its effects, realize that war is a horrible event to happen to anyone. War causes great anguish, suffering, death, and untold waste of resources and supplies. If we were to put all that we have spent waging war into things profitable for society, we would have trillions of dollars available for all sorts of positive projects.
One thing that you fail to realize, promislander, is that being in the military does not automatically mean you are a killer. On the contrary, our nation's strong military power keeps our nation more at peace than it would otherwise. As many famous scholars of world history have said, "The best way to prevent war, is to be prepared for war." Just like a policeman in a neighborhood cannot completely eradicate crime, he is very helpful in preventing it.
Why did God institute government in the first place? It is to protect life and property, and to punish evildoers. For you to insinuate that it is possible for a sinner to enforce the laws of government but that it is to "dirty" for a Christian to participate in it is absolute rubbish.
Remember, my loyalty is to "one nation under God." If I am every ordered to participate in an action which violates my biblical beliefs, I can and will back out of it. I already have several times, and they have respected me for it.
It seems that you have a very unrealistic dream world that you live in. We are citizens of heaven, however, we are very much a part of society here on earth. It is our obligation as Christians to be a light and salt in our society.
There have been others like you, who would advocate every Christian's removal from politics, law enforcement, the military, etc., etc. The end result would be a society completely without the influence of godly men and run by personnel who are likely to be corrupt and unscrupulous individuals.
The bottom line is this: I as a conservative holiness Christian have a responsibility before God to complete my mission in life that He has given me. And even though people like you may critisize my work, I know that one of these days I shall stand before God and give account of my actions. I will not stand before you or anyone else here on earth. God will judge me, and I know that if I do not complete my work here in the U.S. Army as He has commanded me, I will suffer the consequences.
Therefore, respect the convictions of other people, just as we respect yours. God has led me into military service. You He has not. Please don't try to apply your personal convictions to everyone, because it just doesn't work.
It is no use to really discuss this any further. You now know my beliefs and I know yours, and I very respectfully disagree with you. May God bless you and your ministry.
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Resonse from "LD"
Sr./Bible College
Nov 10, 2002 11:54:52 pm
I do think the issue comes down to the theological base of whether God has double standards, as I pointed out before. He obviously approves of and mandates the use of violence and killing by the government in some cases. Thus, this type of killing cannot be considered wrong by anyone. Unpleasant, yes. All killing and war is. But is it wrong? No.
Thanks to everyone for the vigorous discussion, but I believe we have all stated our points rather clearly and whatever convincing or lack thereof has already occurred. I appreciate this forum and the opportunity it has given me to research and contemplate my views on this issue. I just wish we could have this thorough of discussion on every topic.
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Response from "AJ"
Sr.Airman/corp.USAF
Nov 11, 2002 4:22:08 pm
to the brother promiselander..........bottom line is this..that if I could have taken out Hitler before he did all the damage he did, I would have!!!!!! think about it!!!!!literally think about what youre actually saying!!!And to not use force to defend YOUR OWN WIFE or flesh and blood children!!! Come on sir, he that knoweth to do good(protect/defend the innocent for example) and doeth it not, to him IT IS sin!!!!! And if I could have taken out Osama Bin Laden before he did the damage he did, I would have! Bottom line of reality here! Furthermore, in one of your earlier posts/conversations when confronted with a scenario about what you would do if your wife or daughter or even, lets say, your 6 month old baby were being raped or murdered that you would call the police. What if you didnt have tear gas or a phone or anything else to assist you . . . .would you REALLY stand by and watch or actually use whatever force/violent action neccessary. I think we all know what someone would do in that case....you included. Additionally, if you really believe in your heart of hearts that force/violent action to the point of killing if neccessary is forever and completely forbidden for Christians to partake in, then to be consistant with your own beliefs you wouldnt call the police knowing very well that they carry loaded guns and would/do use them if neccessary!!! For you to call the police and have them do the dirty work for you (i.e. to have them commit the "sin" of violent action/self defense killing for you)is a big cop-out and in fact a sin in and of itself(by asking them to do the sin for you!). Sir, if I may say so, that kind of "reasoning?" is neither consistant nor logical with your line of thinking. Nor realistically fair or just! Once again the bottom line here is reality. And by the way I am in the military(U.S. Air Force) and serve as a combatant which means that everyone who serves in the military carries weapons and is trained to kill IF NECCESSARY(chaplains and medical personnel excluded according to the Geneva Conventions L.O.A.C.(Law Of Armed Conflict). So it was in the times of Christ with the Roman soldiers: they were trained to bear arms and kill if need be regardless of their particular duty! I hope you are not offended by my strongly worded statements. No offense intended. Im just a down-to-earth, call it as it is, pragmatic kind of a person! God bless you for being a sincere man of convictions. (p.s.---FYI---the opinions expressed in the previos statements are not neccessarilly viewpoints held by the U.S. Air Foce or the United States Govt., but rather the sole viewpoint of the writer) Thank You!
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Response from "JV"
usarmycadet
Nov 11, 2002 6:01:47 pm
Mr. J:
You made some excellent points in your post! Keep up the good work.
By the way sir, what rank are you and what base are you stationed at?
I was considering the U.S. Air Force Academy at one time, but I decided to stay Army and go to West Point where I am currently a cadet here studying like crazy.
Happy Veteran's Day to all you veterans out there!!!
Respectfully,
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Response from "JV"
usarmycadet
Nov 11, 2002 6:06:11 pm
Hooah!!
Senior Airman at "undisclosed location."
I got it.
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promiselander
Nov 12, 2002 4:52:06 pm
Greetings Y'all, I have been offline because our electricity has been out due to the storm and tornadoes in our area this Lord's Day. We had some folks who were unable to get to their home because of the tornado and another family who came to stay with us because the tornado nearly took out their mobile home. We praise God for His goodnes and faithfulness. WE are all safe, though we are just a few miles from the locations of 11 deaths and a great number of injuries. Again, in the midst of our trials, Jesus never fails. Hope all of you are doing well.
I hope to be back in here this evening, the Lord willing. Too bad no one has wanted to get in here and share in the past couple of days. Actually, I did read some responses and wonder when y'all are going to get over you shyness?. I hope you have missed me as much as I have missed you (or is that just me and my personal convictions again)? I am going to miss you Bro. Jeffrey if you don't continue to share. Glad to hear from Bro. Jackson, Jackson, Jackson, (hee hee).
Looking forward to picking it up again.
PROMISELANDER,
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Response from "LD"
Sr./Bible College
Nov 12, 2002 5:22:43 pm
Glad to hear of promiselander's safety through the storm...really! And I appreciate Mr. J's ability to communicate rather more forcefully than I do. Love y'all, and hope we can find something else we disagree on strongly if the discussion can be this good.
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Response from promiselander
Nov 13, 2002 12:14:23 am
Hello Y'all. I will try to respond to each one's post in different ways and varying degrees. Though it appears that I am alone in presenting the Nonviolent position and though I may be on some kind of crusade (oh no, another slip) I want to assure you that I do not have a Messianic complex. I also am not just offering my own ideas, but those which have been espoused by many Christians for centuries. I, of course, believe that the position I offer is also the New Testament position though I reaize that you do not. But since that is the point of discussion, I try to offer what I clearly see as supporting evidence. YES, I know you don't agree, I understand that. That is why you present your arguments, and though I don't agree with you, I want to hear them. I keep offering what I believe to be Biblical arguments which suport my position and you can refute them all that you want. I am a big boy, I am not thin skinned. And though I have used "I" 21 times thus far in this paragraph, I do not stand alone in my position. What I find to be interesting is that the nonviolent position has been discovered by many "back to the Bible" groups which have risen up thoughout history. I am not speaking of groups which you and I would consider to be cultic. I am speaking of solid, Biblically orthodox groups. And what I have seen in my studies is that many of these groups are holiness groups. From my point of view, nonviolence is just the natural outcome of a pure heart filled with perfect love. I know you do not agree. That is fine. I am just letting you know that it is a little less than accurate to refer to the position of nonviolence as "promiselanders personal convictions" as if I just came up with some strange doctrine on my own or that I have followed a few misguided souls into some new heresy.
On the other hand, why should anyone be bothered that I live by my personal convictions, which I am fully persuaded are Biblical and are in line with historic Christianity. I don't think of y'all as just holding to personal convictions. I think you are holding to what you believe to be a well grounded Biblical position.
Making this point might be a waste of time as far as you are concerned. However, sometimes one person sees the weightiness of an issue which others do not see. This will cause one person to treat the issue with disdain, while it actually may deserve a more thoughtful response than just a quick and easy dismissal. Again, there are plenty of people who will not understand what I am saying or if they do they will not agree with my application, however, the principle is sound and should be practiced by those who are students and/or teachers of the Word. This is just a bit of counsel for when you enter into a discussion with others about things in which you are not well versed or things about which you disagree. The outcome of this approach is two-edged. You may learn something and you may be able to teach something to someone else.
And before someone places an on this spot, I don't believe that it is. Remember, the subject of this part of the discussion is not "nonviolence" but "a New Testament apology for nonviolence." You may think that my application is not consistant with the New Testament, that is fine, but don't dismiss it as if it is just a personal conviction. It seems to me that I also read a statement saying that my position was either "absurd" or "rediculous" but I couldn't find it when I went back looking for it. I have offered what many other highly esteemed and beloved Christians believe to be passages which support a nonviolence position. No, you don't see them the same way I do. But, can we add anything to ourselves by such a light dismissal of an argument. Prove me wrong, but don't just saddle me with some label. I will try to live by my own admonitions. When I don't, call me to task.
I will get back in here as soon as I can. I do want to share more New Testament passages, and I do find the fellowship invigorating. I also find it interesting that you all stand solidly together in your agreement and firm in your convictions...I mean position.
One last little story;
The speaker stood before his audience and said, "My job is speaking and your job is listening, if you finish your job before I finish my job, let me know so that I can quit my job." Now, I know that we are all listeners and speakers, but if it gets to the point (and so it seems with some) where you are finished with your job, just let me know and I will quit my job. To be perfectly honest with you, I think there are many more facets to this great gem of truth we are discussing.
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