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PAGE 8 DISCUSSION ON CHRISTIAN NONVIOLENCE
RESPONSE FROM "C"
Teacher
Nov 08, 2002 9:41:17 am
So when God commanded the Israelites to completely wipe out the Canaanite nations was He being less than loving? As I understand it, you are saying that it is impossible to have a right heart attitude and a proper love for other humans when we are killing (not murdering) them on behalf of the state. Larry has, in fact, given Scriptural evidence for his point. The NT commands us to obey the state; if the NT is not clear on the responsibilities of Christians in wartime (and, despite your insistence, it is not), then Christians are beholden to obey the state. Fortunately, in our nation, those who do not wish to kill are not required to do so; but if our nation did require all to serve, Christians should not feel restricted from doing so.
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Response from "JV"
usarmycadet
Nov 08, 2002 1:04:15 pm
As active duty military, all I can say is, "We carry not the sword in vain." God instituted Government to control evil doers and it is necessary to use force to carry out that mandate. While some of you disagree with me, I still respect your views, which should only be seen as your own "pesonal convictions."
Nowhere in the Bible did God ever tell a military man to quit his occupation. The centurions in the New Testament, Gideon, Samson, David, Jonathan, Joshua, and many others are well spoken of by the Bible. There are dozens of accounts in the Old and New Testaments, and in ancient and modern history of godly men who felt that they must take up arms in a just cause. The Bible very specifically gives government to power to punish those who threaten our society, and there is no way anyone can refute this.
Though I am still a cadet, it is my duty as an Army officer, to kill when necessary. I might never have to do this, but it is part of my profession. As a committed Christian, I feel God's peace, knowing that I am in the center of His will even in this military environment. For those who would discredit anyone like me, I still respect your opinions, but recognize them just as that: opinions. God leads us all into different walks of life. For ministers of the gospel whose mission it is to feed and pasture the flock, I can understand entirely why a pastor would not feel led into military service. But we also must remember that there are many Christians and men of God in the armed forces who are prepared to give and take life for their countries if need be.
This is an interesting discussion, if somewhat biased. The Bible makes it clear that if I see someone about to hurt another and if I make no effort to protect the victims of injustice, God will require it at my hands. Therefore, we soldiers must use our power wisely to protect life instead of destroy.
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RESPONSE FROM "LD"
Sr./Bible College
Nov 08, 2002 3:07:28 pm
Thank you for that very salient point Cadet. In answer to promiselander I don't believe you have ever given more than your opinion on why all killing and violence are wrong.
There were many in the early church who were also part of the military of the day, and I did mention the thousands of Christians in the Civil War. There were also many in the Revolution, WWI and WWII, Korea, Vietnam, and several I knew in Desert Storm. Your characterization of policemen as not having any compunction about their duty to kill is also very unfair. And I do know of several good Christian policemen who have had to use deadly force.
Keep in mind that I have never been violent with anyone. I have never had reaons to be. Never has the state expected me to defend it or the order of society. As a private citizen and Christian, I am not allowed to kill by either God or country. I am to show Christian love and forgiveness to everyone, which I do to the best of my ability.
Again it comes back to the heart. Killing, mutilating, and causing pain are all unpleasant for most normal people (myself included), but to call sin (lack of love) what God mandates is not wise. Maybe a personal preference (see Cadet's post), but not a sin. Should we go around looking for excuse to kill? No, that is a wrong heart attitude. Are we required to when fulfilling that part of the State's God-given mandate? Yes, at times. It is the difference between wanting to and fulfilling duty.
Fortunately for you, since your personal preference is so obviously strong on this regard, our nation gives you the legal option of inaction.
Doing all in Christ's love, L
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Response from promiselander
Nov 09, 2002 11:13:37 am
There are several issues which have been brought up and if anyone in the discussion group is getting tired of my biased arguments, y'all let me know. I am not here to be a burden and I am not here to be a head-ache or hard-head . Though you may not agree with my position, I am trying to offer new data each time I post. I am trying to build it on what I understand to be a Biblical foundation. I am not offering a proof text, but a network of New Testament verses which together show us that there is no room in the Christian life for killing and violence. I would not want to be guilty of being one who is saying, "Yes it is" just because someone says, "No it isn't." I am trying to present support for my position, even if others do not agree with my understanding of the passages. To be perfectly honest, if my posting is more of a burden than a blessing, and if it is not glorifying to Jesus, I am eager to cease fire... er...uh... cease and desist. I do not have to have the last word. Just let me know. I am part of this discussion because it is a DISCUSSION. I try to respond to those of you who are including me in the "debate."
In order to keep this post short (gasp) I will only make mention of one point (to Bro. Larry) and speak to another point.
1. Bro. L, I think it would be good for you to either re-read my statement concerning Christian law officers or ask me to explain what you did not understand. Maybe I did not state it clearly, and I would not want you to getthe wrong impression. Thanks.
2. Let me respond to what some of you understand to be the New Testament apology for Christians being violent and killing; the command for us to Obey Government.
Obvioulsly you understand this to be a blank check given to the "government" which requires us to obey any and every demand they make of us. Let me point out that no Scripture can mean that the government has unlimited powers since Peter said that we are to obey God rather than men and since Paul and others were either imprisoned or executed for being in open violation to some of their laws. Let me also point out that if the "government" does not have unlimited power, you have to ASSUME Christians are obligated to obey the "government" in the area of killing since neither this nor any other passage in the New Testament either commands us to kill or allows us to kill. I know I keep saying this over and over and you keep refuting it, but as of yet you have not presented one single passage to support your position. I disagree that it is a matter of interpretation on this specific point. There is no New Testament verse which either commands or allows Christians to kill or be violent against our fellow man. Again, if you have one, present it and prove me wrong, but don't claim to have one and then present nothing. Ask any one of your professors or respected ministry brothers if this passage is a clear New Testament apology for Christian violence and killing. Ask them if it actually says that we are to take up arms against anyone. We may read it into the passage, but that is the only way we can find it there. I will agree that this passage does not delineate every law to which we are subject, but it is not the New Testament apology for that which is nowhere else substantiated in the New Testament by Jesus or the apostles or any other writer.
If you can Biblically show me where I am wrong concerning this point, please show me. If you agree that "obedience to the government is not "proof positive" of Christians killing others, maybe you can agree with me (as I clutch my heart and stagger backwards).
And Bro. Cadet, thank you for your concern but do not be bothered that this discussion is biased. It is not the first time I have been "The Lone Stranger" in a discussion...oops...you mean I am the biased one don't you? Anyway, as Chesty Puller said when he and his fellow Marines (sorry Cadet) were surrounded by the enemy, "Men we can attack in any direction." Therefore I looks to myself and sez, "CHARGE."
(No, I do not consider y'all as my enemy, I am just funnin with ya).
PROMISELANDER aka DAVID
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Response from PROMISELANDER
Posted: Nov 09, 2002 12:37:37 pm
Brother J, you say,
quote:
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As active duty military, all I can say is, "We carry not the sword in vain.
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Are you referring to the State carrying the sword or to Christians. If you are speaking in behalf of the State, I would agree with you 100% however if you are saying that "We" refers to Christians, you are wrong. This is not my opinion or simply my "personal convictions" it is fact. Let's be clear on this. It is not just a misquote to say "We carry not the sword in vain", it is a misrepresentation of what Paul said. I certainly do not believe you are trying to twist Scripture, but that is the end result of this misquote.
quote:
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We carry not the sword in vain.
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Remember, no one has said that God told anyone in the Bible to leave the military. Actually, when someone was called a soldier in the New Testament times, they were not necessarily in the military but in some kind of government service. Not my opinion, historical fact. The issue we are discussing is not whether anyone was told to leave the military, but whether the New Testament commands or allows Christians to use violence or to kill.
Though you may be accurate in saying
quote:
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There are dozens of accounts in the Old and New Testaments...of godly men who felt that they must take up arms in a just cause.
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your application is faulty. Let me explain. There may be dozens of accounts in the Old and New Testament, but there are none in the New Testament at all. It would be the same as me trying to prove polygamy by saying,
There are dozens of accounts in the Old and New Testaments...of godly men who had more than one wife at a time.
It would be true. But all of the accounts would be in the Old Testament. Just because something was practiced in the Old Testament does not mean that it is approved in the New Testament.
As far as the actions of Christians in other times and climes, that is not the argument. The question is concerning the New Testament. The New Testament is our final authority, not the life of godly men in history or even in our present times.
I think you understand that it would be reasonable for a "minister" or pastor to not feel led into the military. It appears to me however that this puts you and me in the minority in this discussion.
You also seem to be saying that there might be a double standard for believers carrying arms. You said,
quote:
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God leads us all into different walks of life. For ministers of the gospel whose mission it is to feed and pasture the flock, I can understand entirely why a pastor would not feel led into military service.
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As far as having a double standard for believers concerning bearing arms, I would have to disagree with you. I hope others would also, but be that as it may.
I don't see me as being in the ministry and you not being in the ministry. We are all priests of God. We are all in the ministry. There is no double standard, one for the "ministry" and the other for the "laity" (which means people). The only difference there is in standard for "ministry" people, is that they must be living by New Testament standards in order to hold an office. I cannot keep you from being a layman because you do measure up to the high standards of the Word, but you can stop me from being a minister if I do not live by the standards. So, if the standard is true for one it is true for all. Though I may disagree with some of what you said, I fully support part of this which I will deal with in another post.
I totally agree that we Christians are supposed to do something to help those who are suffering injustice. However, there is a great difference in helping someone and killing someone.
I am not disallowing the need for violent force from the New Testament perspective, just the active participation of Christians in the violence and killing.
Thank you for participating. I hope you will continue to post.
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