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PAGE 7 DISCUSSION ON CHRISTIAN NONVIOLENCE
RESPONSE FROM "K.As."
22/Bible College graduate
Posted: Nov 07, 2002 9:51:11 pm
I would just like to say that I have enjoyed this discussion, and it has really made me think. I have asked God to show me what His truth is on the matter and I want to remain openminded. So far I have not come to the same conclusion as you, Promiselander(I would call you by your first name, but I don't know it), but as I said I want to remain open.
As I said before, to my way of thinking I think that there is a difference between spiritual persecution against Christians and evil done to innocent people. As a result our responses can and should be different in those situations based on my understanding of Scripture. My thinking has been called a little "different" before, but I would like to know what you guys think about that.
P.S. the other guys know this, Promiselander, but I graduated from KCCBS last year with a pastoral degree (just in case you think I'm crazy!)
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RESPONSE FROM "R"
Nov 08, 2002 12:47:00 am
Promiselander,
Do you feel that their is a difference between not protecting yourself and protecting others? I feel that it would be okay to protect my sister, but would feel that I would not necessarily have the right to protect myself.
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RESPONSE FROM "LD"
Sr./Bible College
Nov 08, 2002 1:08:11 am
Once again I come back to the point that in the sermon on the mount Jesus was talking about heart attitudes and how these work out into our lives. (And this is one of the murder prohibitions I referenced several posts back.) War has nothing to do with heart attitude of the soldiers involved. It is an action of one state against another.
A Christian can fight a war without murdering (hating another in his heart) or being vengeful. In much the same way he can serve as a police officer and even kill in the line of duty without vioulating any one of the commands or principles in the sermon on the mount. One of the basic problem I see with the whole of your argument is the assumption of the evilness of all violence and killing, regardless of heart attitude. Jesus even waxed violent on one occasion, and God commanded violence by many nations in the OT and give NT mandate to nations to use violence (the sword) to protect the citizenry, so clearly it is not always wrong. If I could see where all violence and killing are equated with murder and sin, I would agree with every point you make and would probably also start lobbying for the pacifism of all nations, the end of the death penalty, and the allowance of law enfocement to carry deadly weapons. I could not abide expecting others to do the evil I would not. As it is, killing in and of itself is not evil, neither is violence. The heart attitude behind it is what makes it evil most of the time (see the aforementioned sermon on the mount).
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Response from Promiselander
Nov 08, 2002 1:35:43 am
Bro. Kevin, thanks for helping make me feel at home. My name is David L. Gould, and I am a pastor of a small independent holiness church in Tennessee.
Let me tell you a little story in answer to one of your earlier questions. I lived in a neighborhood where some of my neighbors had some large and overly active dogs. One of these uncontrolled beast (the dog not the neighbor) had proved to be a threat to one of my children and I told the neighbor he needed to keep his dog under control or I would kill it if it threatened my children again. Time went by and all was well. Then one morning I got an unexpected knock at my front door. There stood the owner of the dog in question. He was furious. His dog was missing and he came to see if I had killed his dog. He informed me that I had made some claim that I was going to shoot his dog. I unashamedly and enthusiastically told him, "No, I have not killed your dog. And I never threatened to shoot your dog, since I don't even own a gun. What I had said was, I will kill your dog if it is a threat to my children. And if I do kill your dog, you won't have to come and ask me, because, I will bring it's dead body back to you personally." He went on to tell me that I was the strangest preacher he had ever seen and I told him that came as no great shock. But more than his concern for his dog, he should be concerned for his soul and get right with Jesus. I never did have to kill his dog. I never had a problem with him again. As time went by, I had his respect because I had been open and honest with him. I had emphasised spiritual realities. Though he never came to my church, he did start going back to church again and seemed to have a real interest in spiritual things. I hope he is doing well today. But the answer to your question,
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If a wild animal attacked you or your family would you simply pray for help, or would you use force against the beast AND pray?!
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NO! I would not be nonviolent with a beast. I believe we ought to be humane to animals, but they are not eternal souls for whom Jesus died.
I am also not a vegetarian, and I don't hug trees, just incase anyone is wondering
I think one of the main concepts which moved me to my present position was the desire to be as much like Jesus and the New Testament believers as I could be. In reading the Scriptures, I just cannot see the apostles or other early believers bearing arms and taking lives. As a matter of fact, neither could they for the next 300 years.
It is also interesting. Some of the most successful personalities in Law Enforcement have not had to be violent. They have dealt with all kinds of law breakers and have never had to draw their gun. Today we see some of the most volatile situations de-fused by Negotiators. As long as we are in this dispensation, there will be the need for physical force to control the most wicked of men. But there is nowhere in the New Testament where we are told to be part of that force. I don't see the compartmentalizing of the Christian life that so many others seem to see. My whole being is committed to Christ and His gospel of peace. I can't speak peace to a world in trouble and then kill them because they happen to be on my countries hit list. Even if they are the bad guys, I have a higher calling to reach them and all others with the sword of the Spirit and not the sword of steel. I must give more than lip service to being a peacemaker. And it is costly. It is not the sissy way out.
One more thought for tonight. No one should think that just because I do not believe in Christians being violent and killing people that I am either a dove or bleeding heart liberal who would give a slap on the wrist to criminals. Actually I have not spoken to that issue. But when it comes to the New Testament directives on how Christians are to interact with it's society, we are to love them and even do good to our enemies. This is the evidence of the Scriptures in spite of our own personal views and preferences.
Promiselander aka David
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Response from promiselander
Bros. R and L, I am sorry that I missed both of your posts. I was inputting and didn't see you at the time. I hope your day has gone well.
Bro. R, I believe I understand your question.
quote:
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Do you feel that their is a difference between not protecting yourself and protecting others? I feel that it would be okay to protect my sister, but would feel that I would not necessarily have the right to protect myself.
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Because I believe God has called me to trust Him totally for my protection, I must also trust Him with the protection of those I love. I know what you are saying about feeling a responsibility for others. And if it was our responsibility, we should do the protecting. However, we are told to not lean on the arm of flesh, because it will fail. We are told to not trust in horses and chariots, but to trust in the Lord. Remember as I shared with someone earlier, I do not know that God will have me do nothing. I just know He will not have me do violence. I also do not know what I will do, but I hope I will be faithful to what I believe to be right. Up to this point I have been kept even in desparate times. When we look at the New Testament (after Peter's fiasco in the garden) we never see believers act violently in behalf of other believers. They sometimes took the place of others, they sometimes helped others escape, but they never acted in violence. That is the New Testament model. We should be able to trust God with our saftey and the saftey of those we love. We may have to run or hide, and that is Biblical. We may have to stand and see the salvation of God, and that is Biblical. Sometimes we have to stand and suffer for Jesus and that is Biblical. But we cannot be violent either for ourselves or others, because that is not Biblical.
Bro. L, I am sorry, but I don't think you know anymore about how you would feel if you were killing people than I do. It is easy to speak about how much we love someone while we are blowing their guts all over creation.
To state that war and killing has nothing to do with the heart attitude is absurd. If your attitude was full of love, you would not be killing those for whom Jesus died. You cannot mutilate a man in war, and love him at the same time. You cannot cause a man to suffer great pain, and also for his family to deal with their own surviviors pain if you love them as you ought. It all sounds good, but it doesn't measure up to Christian compassion. I would suggest that you need to put your heart into gear before you put your keyboard into motion. Then again, I could be wrong about you. How many have you mutilated and killed? How many Spirit filled Christians do you know who have been instruments of mayhem while filled with perfect love? How many pure hearted law officers have you known who have killed in the line of duty and they did not have any compunction about it? Maybe you are the exception rather than the rule. Then again, maybe it is easier to talk the talk than it is to walk the walk. I contend that violence and killing are not so easily dismissed in the name of love.
I admit that I do not understand all there is to know about this issue. But you speak as if there is no way under heaven it would be wrong for a Christian to kill. You do not have any New Testament example. You do not have any New Testament directive to kill. The best you have is silence which you interpret to be approbation. I have verse after verse which tells us not to be violent, or to kill, but rather to be kind to our enemies. You say that you would love your countries enemy while you killed them. Talk is cheap. Jesus did not call us to lip service but to acts of mercy and kindness and goodness. We can redefine every word in the New Testament, but we will not ever find one verse that puts approval on the issue which you so confidently assert. I can show you the verses which call for nonviolence, you cannot show me one verse which calls for violence and killing to be performed by Christians.
Again you give me much of your own ideas, but no New Testament. I would think that you should have at least one "proof text" if you are going to be so dogmatic that Christians can be the instruments of violence and killing at the behest of the State.
My position is not an easy one. I am not a pacifist. I am simply saying that the New Testament directs Christians to live by a different standard than our unsaved neighbors. The problem of personal and national crime demands some kind of recourse, but it does not necessarily follow that the Church must execute the punishment.
As far as saying that it is not evil for Christians to be part of the killing war machine because God gave commands to someone in the Old Testament to kill, is not reasonable either. How can we justify any behavior in a person during the Gospel age just because God did something differently in the Old Testament. I would venture that argument to fail before it would used very often.
I said from the beginning, I did not expect to convince anyone because of my arguments or even Scripture. However, I would like to think that we would all be moved to a greater depth of tenderness and compassion. If you are willing to kill and maime, at least act like it is the last thing you want to do instead of doing it proudly as your patriotic duty.
Love y'all and I hope to be a help instead of a hinderance
Promiselander aka David
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