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PAGE 6 DISCUSSION ON CHRISTIAN NONVIOLENCE
RESPONSE FROM "LD"
Sr./Bible College
I appreciate this string especially because it is forcing me to think out a lot of my positions and search God's Word.
As for John's cammand to the soldiers in Luke 3:14, the word translated as violence in the KJV is actually the word for intimidation or oppression rather than violence and relates directly to the extortion of money and false accusation listed later in the verse. The Levites also did enter into war and violence on occasion.
The Old Testament is a good revelation of God, and after reading it, I wonder about this statement by promiselander
quote:
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I believe God has always preferred love, mercy, peace and longsuffering.
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I do believe we have the Old Testament so we will realize what a holy and just God we serve and how violent His justice and anger can be. Seeing God as more loving than just is a somewhat skewed view.
I as well don't see God condoning all warfare, but He does use all of it to further His purposes in this world. I would argue that there is a difference between my personal enemies and my nation's enemies. I am a part of the state after all.
One example is in the Civil War. It was a horrible mess, and would never have happened if people in the government on both sides were just rather than selfish. It did happen however, and Christians served on both sides. They didn't hate the people or consider them personal enemies, they were just servants of their state doing what their state deemed necessary for protection. Huge revivals broke out in the Southern army during the war, and many of the North were solid Christians. That didn't stop either side from fighting for their state's cause.
I would not normally choose to be involved in war because I realize the horrors of war and how aweful it is. I would participate, however if I felt that my country needed me to. I would rather put my life on the line for my country's purposes than to send sinners in my place. I am prepared to die, and would do so for my country, while sinners are not prepared for eternity.
It is another case of choosing the lesser of two evils. Ideally killing wouldn't happen, and neither would evil. But since it does, and wars happen, I would rather have wars fought by those who won't take the matter personally and get the wrong heart attitudes and commit murder and who can give their lives without fear. War is not a sin, and as such, I see no reason to avoid our responsibility as citizens to help our country fight our wars other than personal preference, which fortunately our country gives us opportunity for.
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Response from promiselander
Posted: Nov 07, 2002 2:14:54 pm
When I was answering the question about this passage, I said,
quote:
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John told them, "Do no violence." Now you and I could argue over the definition of violence. But whatever it means (though it seems to be perfectly clear to me), John was warning the soldiers not to be violent. "to shake or cause to tremble or terrify" is the way Strong defines it...Though this passage may not make it clear to some people (that nonviolence is the expected standard for Christians) it supports the idea far more than it disagrees with it. Since there is no place in the New Testament which commands or allows for violence or killing in the Christian experience, this passage is a part of the overall tapestry.
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The word translated violence here is used in conjuction with those who intimidated and extorted, but it is not exclusively used in that sense in Greek.
As far as the Levites were concerned, they were not to serve in the military to the same extent or in the exact same way as those of other tribes. My point was that there was a difference.
I find it difficult to believe that you will find too many of our theological persuasion who will disagree with the idea that God has always preferred love, mercy, peace and longsuffering. God is Love. I never said that God is "...MORE loving than just..." I was pointing out that He wuold rather deal with us through love than war. As far as the Revelation of God is concerned, "Law came by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ." I certainly see the justice and judgment of God, but I see it in the light of His love and mercy. It is indeed a fearful thing to fall into the hands the living God. While it is true that there was grace and mercy in the Old Testament, these traits of God find their greater manifestation in the New Testament and through the Church age.
And again, I ask, what is the New Testament apology for Christians being violent and killing? My passages do not seem to be convincing, yours do not seem to be existent.
But I am still waiting.
Catcha later.
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RESPONSE FROM "LD"
Sr./Bible College
Posted: Nov 07, 2002 5:13:34 pm
The New Testament deals mostly with the church and the Christian's responsibility to society as a member of the church. Where it does refer to the state, it says that we are to be subject to the higher powers. See Romans 13:1-7, including verse 7: "Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour." In the case of government, it appears that we owe them some degree of loyalty and support in their efforts to protect our nation. Seeing no prohibition anywhere in Scripture against killing, I don't see where we get out of the need to support in the ara of the military when required or needed.
I would sum up this issue as an argument about our degree of loyalty to the state. Promislander comes at it from the fiew that all killing is wrong (where did this idea come from?) and I am coming from the view that we are to be loyal to the state unless it requires a violation of the specific laws of God.
My main point is that since there is no specific law or principle stating that all killing is wrong (the state is even given that responsibility to curtail evil men) we should be give our nation its due even when it requires going to war. My chief apology from Scripture for Christians participating in killing is the absence of a prohibition of killing in war and in behalf of the state, and that supporting the state is expressly commanded. Supporting the government takes precedence over any aversion to violence.
Once again let me restate that we are not allowed violence for selfish reasons, in revenge, or in the name of Christ. His kingdom is spiritual and must use spiritual weapons. These things are clearly presented in Scripture. Our obligations to our state, however, are physical, and the weapons our state uses are sometimes physical.
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Response from promiselander
Nov 07, 2002 8:32:31 pm
Let me see if I understand your point of view concerning select passages from the Sermon on the Mount?
JESUS SAID,
Mat 5:1-2 And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,...
Mat 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
Mat 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
BUT HIS FOLLOWERS SAY,
THIS DOES NOT APPLY TO YOU DURING WAR OR POLICE ACTION.
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JESUS SAID,
Mat 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
BUT HIS FOLLOWERS SAY,
THIS DOES NOT APPLY TO YOU DURING WAR OR POLICE ACTION.
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JESUS SAID,
Mat 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
Mat 5:40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.
Mat 5:41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
Mat 5:42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Mat 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Mat 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
BUT HIS FOLLOWERS SAY,
THIS DOES NOT APPLY TO YOU DURING WAR OR POLICE ACTION.
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JESUS TAUGHT HIS DISCIPLES,
Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven,...
Mat 6:10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven...
Mat 6:12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors...
Mat 6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil...
Mat 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you...
Mat 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
BUT HIS FOLLOWERS SAY,
THIS DOES NOT APPLY TO YOU DURING WAR OR POLICE ACTION.
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JESUS TAUGHT HIS DISCIPLES,
Mat 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
BUT HIS FOLLOWERS SAY,
THIS DOES NOT APPLY TO YOU DURING WAR OR POLICE ACTION.
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Do I hear someone saying, "NO! that is not what we are saying. We are to practice the precepts of the Sermon on the Mount at all times."?
I am sorry, but His teaching in the Sermon on the Mount is not subject to situational ethics. And if we accept this part of His message as being absolute, then there are no exceptions and if we live according to the Sermon on the Mount, we will not be violent or kill our fellow man. Not only is there no disclaimer in this passage, there is none elsewhere concerning our responsibility to peace and love. We are to obey the State when it does not conflict with God's higer law. Even the State recognizes that concept.
Check out the context in the Old Testament roots of these injunctions and the circumstances of the day in which Jesus spoke these words. He was not just speaking of "spiritual" things as opposed to everyday, living in the real world, private citizen things. Our whole life is to be lived separated from the ways of the world.
Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Until later or until He comes, have a good evening.
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