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PAGE 5 DISCUSSION ON CHRISTIAN NONVIOLENCE
Response from "C"
Teacher
Nov 06, 2002 6:39:53 pm
Thank you for sharing your testimony. It was very enlightening.
When did God change His mind about warfare? He was obviously pro-war in the Old Testament, and He did not have a personality change when we entered the dispensation of grace. Jesus' statements on the sermon on the mount do not override the teaching of the Old Testament; they merely clarify the original intent of those teachings.
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Response from "LD"
Sr./Bible College
Posted: Nov 06, 2002 8:24:24 pm
Thank you for your testimony on how you came to your position. I am much impressed by your journey. I will never try to hurt your feelings and am open to any criticism of my position. I think I can take it without getting personal.
I do wonder about the ethicality of saying that the government has a responsibility, then calling that responsibility evil. Should we encourage sinners to do what is wrong by refusing to do it ourselves? If all killing is wrong, then no government should do it, and the Bible clearly tells the government to do it. soo...
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Resonse from promiselander
Nov 07, 2002 2:08:41 am
Bros. K, C and L, I will try to respond to your post as briefly as possible. Though K posted early, I would like to speak to the issues just mentioned by C and L. (I trust you do not mind me being so familiar as to call you by your names.)
I do not believe God has changed His mind about war. I don't believe He was ever "pro-war." I believe God has always preferred love, mercy, peace and longsuffering. Yes there were times when God has mobilized Israel militarily against His enemies. And there have been times when He has used heathen armies to bring about His purposes. But I don't think He was pro-war.
His decisions to utilize war were not only a last resort but always from a perspective of perfect wisdom and total unselfishness. God makes no mistakes in judgment. God was angry with those who waged war for carnal purposes. I believe He still is. God condemned those who killed or were violent when it was not in obedience to His directive, even when it was done by His own people.
God had a nation, a political, geographically bounded, Theocratically established nation. However, the nation of Israel (later Judah) was not simply a political entity. It was the chosen vessle through which He had chosen to reveal Himself. His Word, His Seed, His plan was wrapped up in the nation of Israel. An attack on Israel was an attack on God. And God had already told us that He is a jealous God.
There is no such political, geographically bounded, Thocratically established nation of God on the earth today. He does have a nation,
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a Holy Nation, a Royal Priesthood, a Chosen Generation and a Peculiar People;
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we are the Church. We are the chosen vessle through which He has chosen to reveal Himself. The Church has the assignment to communicate His Word, His Seed, His plan to the other nations. An attack on the kingdoms of this world are not attacks on Him. An attack on His Church is an attack on Him. Yet we are a Spiritual House and,
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His Kingdom is not of this world, if it were, His servants would fight.
The Kingdom of God is not meat and drink but RIGHTEOUSNESS, PEACE and JOY in the HOLY GHOST.
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Another thing to keep in mind about the wars of the Old Testament; they were examples for us in our spiritual walk and warfare. We have no problem seeing the types and examples of Israel and Egypt or Israel and the Moabites or Ammonites or Amalakites. But remember, Paul told us that these things, real as they were, are,
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examples to teach Christians how to live in this present evil world.
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Certainly this does not mean a carnal warfare is being taught to believers, but a spiritual. We are told clearly that,
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our weapons are not carnal, but spiritual.
We wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities...
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There is not one word in the New Testament which allows for a Christian doing violence to another person. But we are told,
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Love worketh no ill to his neighbour...
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In other words, God did not enter into warfare lightly or for temporal reasons. But again, for whatever reason God entered into war, it was God, after all. We certainly cannot say, Since God directed Israel in war, therefore He has given a blank check for any and all wars today. Nor does the Bible lead us to believe, Since wars were justified or santified by God's participation, therefore any or all wars fought today enjoy the same status of Divine approval.
I believe that we do not see the issue of war clearly spoken to in the New Testament because it is a necessary evil. If you have a problem with that phrase, join the club, but it is the best way I know how to state my position. There is never an excuse for adultery, lying, stealing or murder. These issues are clearly addressed and repudiated in the New Testament. However, there is a need in this sinful world for the deterence of wicked men, whether individually or nationally. This is why God has given the sword to the STATE. Jesus clearly told Peter to
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put his sword away
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when he used it against another human being and He went on to say that,
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those who live by the sword shall die by the sword.
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John the Baptizer clearly told the soldiers,
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Do vilolence to no man.
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The Levitical priest were not to be men of war or violent bloodshed as in the military sense and David was not allowed to build the Temple because he was a man of war and bloodshed. These are some of the Old Testament indicators concerning the place of violence and killing, even in the military sense, as applied to those who are set aside to God for holy service.
The Church is separate from the world in so many ways, and it is to stand separate from the acts of violence and killing since it has been given the message of peace and perfect love. The world will not understand the message or the Prince of Peace when they are looking down an M-16. If war is a necessary evil, it does not follow that it is an evil which must be performed by those who are called to be peacemakers.
Though this next statement might seem a little far out I will say it anyway. It is not our fault that force must be used to deter evil men and nations, since we have chosen the way of peace and love. Since it is not our fault, God gives the responsibility to correct it to those who are responsible for it; the lost, the unrepentant, the State. They can turn from all of their sins and be forgiven. And no, I am not saying that they are sinning by wielding the sword as given by God to the State. I am only saying that we cannot prove that the believer has a responsibility to wield the sword.
I do not see the Christian encouraging the sinner to do what is wrong. It is God who has given the assignment, not me or the Church. It is not a matter of me refusing to do something which God has commanded me to do. It is me obeying God by
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loving my enemy
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doing good to those who hate me.
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One other thought before I close this post. Where does anybody get the right to say that a Christian who refuses to kill or do violence is any less a good citizen of the USA than those who are willing to kill and do violence? Think about it. In this country, those who have a religious conviction against killing are not required to bear arms. This is because our country, having a Christian heritage, recognizes the reality that a person can be a good citizen and nonviolent at the same time.
Let me ask you this. Since our country allows for you to not kill, why would you choose to kill. As a Christian, why would you choose to do that which is less peaceful and shows less love to our enemies. Why would you clutter up the image of the One Who died for the sins of the world by killing them while they are in their sins?
I realize that these are not short little statements. But the issue takes more than "canned" sound bite answers.
Thanks again brothers. I hope we all grow closer to Him and to one another. I know this is a help to me.
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