|
|
|
| ||
PAGE 1 DISCUSSION ON CHRISTIAN NONVIOLENCE
This is the record of a discussion I had with some other brothers on a Christian Discussion Forum. When I visited the site, I saw that several had been involved in a discussion concerning Christians and nonviolence. I thought I would participate and see how things went. Here is a copy of that discussion.
--------------------------------
Quotes are placed between lines
--------------------------------
Change of speaker is designated by the following breakline
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
PROMISELANDER
Greetings, this is my first post in this group. I am glad to be here and look forward to some good fellowship.
The Scriptures show us that God has given some directives to the State and some others to the Church. God did not give the sword to the Church, but to the State. The sword given to the State is for the purpose of protecting the righteous and punishing the wicked.
The sword given to the Church is not carnal, but spiritual. We, the Church, do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against... Jesus said that His kingdom is not of this world, and if it were of this world, His servants would fight. We, the Church are called to love our enemies, feed our enemies, give drink to our enemies, do good to our enemies. We are to love our enemies. We are to lay down our lives and we are to forgive our enemies.
The Old Testament is the record of God dealing with the world through His earthly kingdom, Israel. He has no political kingdom today. We are called to bring life, not take it.
There are Christians on both sides of most issues and even in the most pagan of countries and societies. It is possible that brother could be sent out to kill brother if we were subject to the authority of the State instead of the authority of Jesus.
There is not one shred of evidence in the New Testament that Christians are sent to kill or even allowed to kill. Rather, we the entire New Testament is a revelation of the Prince of Peace brigning peace through peacemakers.
Yes, Jesus is coming back and will wage war, but since I believe that God deals differently in the different dispensations, I have no problem with that.
There is not one instance where Christians were allowed to use force or violence to protect themselves or others when suffering at the hands of evil men. That is the job of the State. It is a matter of faith to trust God in the face of danger. We are allowed to take flight, as Paul and others did, but we are not allowed to fight.
What is the New Testament apology for Christians being violent or killing?
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
REPONSE FROM "C"
Teacher/former Navy
---------------------------------------------------------
It is possible that brother could be sent out to kill brother if we were subject to the authority of the State instead of the authority of Jesus.
---------------------------------------------------------
I was under the impression that we were under the authority of both. The Bible makes it quite clear that we are to submit to the governing authorities, i.e. the State.
This is not a defense of militarism, but I have a question. What was Jesus' rationale for asking Peter to have a sword on hand at Gethsemane? If the Father had allowed the cup to pass from Jesus, was Jesus planning to fight His way out of the garden?
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
REPONSE FROM "LD"
Sr./Bible college
I think the point is that as long as we live in a state and enjoy citizenship, we should also conform to its requirements and support it as long as we can do so without violating Scriptural injunctions. Service in the military does not indicate a lack of love for those being fought against, it is more a service to the interests of the countries that are in conflict. Not all killing is murder. Executions, wars, and self-defense have never been considered murder, and there is no injunctions against any of these (except perhaps the self-defense part, the teachings of Jesus seem to rule this out). Yes, the Kingdom of God first and foremost, but don't neglect duty to your country.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Response from PROMISELANDER
Nov 01, 2002 12:52:31 am
I answer, YES, we are to obey both when there is no conflict. But there come times when we must answer as Peter said under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, "we must obey God rather than men." We are only required or should I say, "allowed" to obey authorities when those authorities are not requiring us to do that which is against the will of God. Paul and Peter and all of the other leaders of the New Testament Church had no problem understanding this principle. American Christians would consider Paul and Peter to be law breakers today. They would be told to obey and submit to the governing authorities.
All of us will disobey the "government" at some point. I just happen to draw the line where the New Testament does, Christians do not and are not allowed to kill, call it murder or whatever you choose. There is no directive in the New Testament which calls for or even allows a believer to resort to violence to save himself or another person. It may be a cultural thing we believe, it may be a modern Christian thing we believe, it may be a denominational thing we believe, but it is not New Testament to believe that Christians can ever resort to violence or killing. Nor is there a single verse in the New Testament which commands us to do that which Jesus taught against and commanded us not to do.
Many other Christians in other times and in other parts of the world understand the non violent position. After all, they base their beliefs on the New Testament. The same folks who tell us that we should obey our government will in the next breath support Christians in those other parts of the world who are suffering for disobeying their governments for Biblical reasons and conscience sake.
People who tell us that we ought to obey the State in things such as killing, which Jesus did condemn, will break speed limits in order to get to Church meetings on time. They will break other lesser laws which they have no Bibliclal disagreement with, but fault those who stand on the clear words of Jesus and the rest of the New Testament concening violence.
We could argue about the reason for Peter having a sword (it could be for use in cutting wood or killing wild beast as they traveled...after all, theirs was a rather rugged place and time). But what we cannot argue about was Jesus reproving Peter for using the sword to violently attack Malchus. Jesus did not approve of carrying a sword for the purpose of violence or self defence against other men. We can conjecture that, but it would fly in the face of all that He said and the Apostles said and did in the New Testament.
Don't forget what I said, or rather Paul said, the sword was given to the State for the punishing of the wicked and the protecting of the righteous. It was not given to the Church for the purpose of political, economic or even religious reasons. The Roman Church has wielded the sword in that way. Martin Luther wielded the sword in that way. John Calvin wielded the sword in that way. But THER IS NO EXAMPLE OF A NEW TESTAMENT BELIEVER EVER WIELDING THE SWORD IN THAT WAY. And no passage ever gave the believer the right to wield it in that way.
We should be more concerned about the State not using the sword for the punishing of the wicked and the protecting of the righteous. We should be more concerned about the State abusing the sword to satisfy it's own carnal plans rather than do it's duty. Remember, all of us are under authority, including the government. When the government misuses and abuses it's authority, Christians are to obey God rather than men. McNamara's war cost us about 60,000 military people and it finaly came out in the last decade that it was not for the presevation of peace or American liberty, it was a political ploy. Even if there is such a thing as a just war, and I would agree with that, depending on the definition of "just war", still it does not mean that the exacting of violent and deadly actions is required of believers. In reality, Christians are not good citizens when they follow the world in things contrary to the principles and teachings of Jesus and the New Testament.
It may not be popular, but the non violent position is the only one which is supported by Jesus and the New Testament.
Thank you for this discussion. I am not being violent in my response (smile) I am just taking advantage of a forum where we can share openly and in love with each other.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><>
| Site Tools |
|
|
|
|
|
Verse of the Day |
|
|
