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PAGE 2 DISCUSSION ON CHRISTIAN NONVIOLENCE
REPONSE FROM "LD"
Sr/Bible college
Nov 01, 2002 2:25:34 pm
I agree that the state is to bear the sword, and not the church. But we, as individuals, are members of both. As a member of the state, bearing the sword when the state calls for it is helping the state. I would not be violent if told to be so by my pastor or the Home missions board, such action would be the church bearing the sword. If the government drafts me into the military, I will serve and bear the sword in behalf of the state. We need to keep in mind that both the church and the state are made up of people, and we are people, so we can and should fill roles in both.
I also have my doubts about Jesus being a complete pacifist. His only point that I can see is that He was not going to advance his own kingdom or his own aims by violence. To come out with the blanket statement that Jesus condemned all violence and killing, even when the Scripture clearly says that God ordained the government to do that in some cases, is to read more into the Scripture than I have ever seen. If there are specific Scriptures that I am not recalling on this subject, please give me the references. I know It says that we are not to resist with violence for our own sakes, or in the name of Jesus or His kingdom, but I don't see where there is any prohibition on acting in behalf of the state in the divinely ordered "bearing of the sword."
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REPONSE FROM "K.As."
22/Bible cCllege graduate
Nov 02, 2002 12:45:03 am
How are we to be concerned about the State misusing its' authority if we do not become part of the State ourselves? If we do become part of the State(vote, run for office, etc...) what then? If Christians are indeed involved in running the State (if Christians aren't then who does that leave?) then they must face the issues. There is no difference in the Christians life between "secular and sacred". If you live in the domain of the State(especially a democratic State!) then are a part of the State!
As for violence, Jesus used it, and used it well when He drove the moneychangers from the temple. I have a hard time imagining that He didn't draw a little blood while using a whip and throwing tables over!
Here's a thought. Jesus said that He did not come to bring an earthly kingdom, but a heavenly one. That being so, we should be about the business of building His eternal kingdom. So far so good. I think everyone would agree with that. Here's my question. If there is someone who is trying to build their own kingdom on earth(Hitler, Stalin, Saddam), should we as Christians try to stop them? Yes, the wicked will receive their eternal reward in Hell eventually, but should we allow them to make thousands of people suffer first? James says that if we don'take care of those in need our faith is dead(James2:14-26).
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"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age..."Eph. 6:12)
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When we see evil on earth we are seeing Satan working through fallen humanity. That means that when we are dealing with Saddam's, bin Ladin's, and serial snipers we are actually dealing with the power of Satan himself. Now what does God have to say about dealing with Satan?
Just a few thoughts. I'll look forward to hearing what y'all think!
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PROMISELANDER
Nov 02, 2002 1:24:08 am
Yes, we do live in this world and we do have responsibilities in this world. But the responsibilties are not without restrictions and limitations. As far as my loyalties are concerned, they belong without limit to Jesus. My relationship to the State is as a Christian, not just as a member of it's society. I am defined by my citizenship in heaven, not my earthly citizenship. If and when (and it will be when, not if) the State requires something of me which belongs to God, I will render it to God and not to "Caesar" and this will be costly. The easy way out is to say that the State has a blank check to write on me anytime it chooses. The fact is, there are things which belong only to Jesus and He does not allow anyone to superceed His authority. The State has been given the responsibility to bear the sword, but it has not been given the authority to require Christians to bear it for them. I find it apalling that men are coming out of years of Christian education and not knowing that there is a Biblical division of duties between the State and the Church. There are things that God expects of the State, and that without making the Church the servant of the State; and there are things which God expects from the Church, which cannot be given over to the State. The protection of the righteous and the punishing of the wicked is one thing which is given to the State and not given to the Church.
There are many things which the State requires it's members to do which the people of God are bound to resist and reject. I am not familiar with the verse that says we are to help the State when the State is requiring the people of God to go against the teachings of the New Testament. I hope you would be as dedicated to serving your State if it was Red China, Russia, Albania, Romania, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Lybia, Hitler's Germany, Togo's Japan or Caesar's Rome. And before you tell me that Paul
served Caesar's Rome, remember, Paul died because he did not always obey Rome.
To be consistant, you must be a helping member of your State regardless of their exercise of that power and position. If you are called to military service in another country to kill the enemy of that State, you, by your own admission, must fill that role. If there are exceptions to obeying any of these other States, then there is an exception to obeying this State.
We have been raised to obey our State even when it is against the Word of God. As a result, we not only allow the sins of the State, we are personally guilty of the sins of the State, if we do not resist or reject them. Resisting and rejecting wickedness in high places is not just the choice of a few "pacifist", but the obligation of all who follow Jesus fully.
I would like to talk about the problems of being part of the military from a Christian point of view, but I hope we can keep this discussion focused on Christians and violence and killing.
All I am asking is that someone give me the New Testament apology for Christian violence and killing. Folks have offered opinion and personal viewpoint, but not one New Testament verse which allows for Christian violence or killing.
You say you have either not seen or don't recall the New Testament prohibiting Christian violence and killing, I will offer you a passage and in turn, you provide a New Testament passage which supports the concept of violent or killing Christians. I will then provide anther passage to which you will counter with another from your side. And yes, this is a matter of sides. I stand on the side of nonviolent Christians and you do not. You are welcome to recruit help from other pastors, leaders, professors or anyone else. I am eager to see the New Testament apology for violent and killing Christians.
The verses which I offer you will not individually convince you of this simple but rejected truth. However, I believe there are enough verses and New Testament principles to establish that Christians are called to peace and non violence. Like it or not, the position of violent and killing Christians is more of a Roman Catholic position which has been handed down through the the Lutheran Church, the English Catholic Church, the Anglican Church, the Methodist Church and others which, though they protested and separated, they did not leave all of the errors of Romanism behind. The New Testament Church did not accept or promote violent and killing Christians. Even the early Church was true to the gospel of peace to a great extent. The problem comes along as people moved farther and farther from the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles.
Constantly we are faced with Christian warfare in the New Testament. However, never are we confronted with the Christian being called to be physically violent or kill his neighbor. IN ANY SETTING. We are specifically told that the weapons of the Christian warfare are not "carnal", that is physical or material as the word is to be understood here,
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2Co 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
2Co 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
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This passage says that though we walk in the flesh that is, though we are human in every sense of the word we do not war after the flesh. It does not say that we have the option of not warring after the flesh, but rather, WE DO NOT WAR ACCORDING TO THE FLESH. It does not say we do not war in the flesh because of geography, idiology, politics, convenience or where we fit into the schedule of God's actions. Give me one verse which tells Christians that they are to bear arms for the express purpose of hurting or killing another person. Give one verse which clearly states that the Christians are to force others into compliance with any earthly government. Give one New Testament example of a believer being directed to fight
for and kill in the name of the State. For Which State are Christians supposed to be willing to kill? Do you really think that New Testament believers could kill in the name of Rome? Kill the very people to whom they were being sent as evangelists? Kill the very people for whom Jesus died to save? Do you really think that New Testament believers went out with a Bible in one had and an executioners sword in the other? Do you really believe that Jesus would allow His soldiers to shed the blood of foreigners simply because they were displeasing or inconvenient to the plan of Rome? Do you really believe that we Christians are to do the killing for those who hate Christ? Now if you believe any of these things, show me in the Bible where it says these things. I do know that Jesus said, (through the apostle Paul)
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" For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal...)
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Let me restate the case from Jesus, "the weapons of our warfare are not carnal..." He did not say that "they are not usually carnal", that "they are only sometimes carnal" or that "they are carnal because we are to help our country." He said that our weapons "are not carnal." He did not say that our SPIRITUAL weapons are not carnal, He said that "our weapons are not carnal." Though this passage will not convince you of the nonviolent position, it is totally in agreement with everything in the New Testament which is clearly nonviolent, and it is not balanced against other verses which tell us to take up arms for the express purpose of physically harming others. It says that our weapons are NOT CARNAL. The Holy Spirit established the principle early on. He said that our weapons are not carnal.
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