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PAGE 20 DISCUSSION ON CHRISTIAN NONVIOLENCE
Response from Promiselander
Nov 20, 2002 4:58:43 pm
Bro. A, I have endeavored to be consistant in my postings. I am consistant in my beliefs. If I have contradicted myself I do not know where, so please point it out and I will try to clarify.
You have taken some of my own words and rearranged them and added your own words and then asked me to expalin my position or asked me if I held to a certain position. I am not saying that you're deliberately misrepresenting my position, I am simply saying that you are misrepresenting my position. Though it would have helped if you had used my own quote rather than restating it, I will try to answer some of your questions again.
You said,
quote:
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I am, however, confused at one issue you previously stated in an earlier posting. You said (please correct me if I'm wrong) that you feel it is scripturally wrong (hence, sin) for believers to use forceful/violent action(up to and including death IF neccessary)
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Concerning sin,
1. sin is a transgression of the Law,
quote:
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1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
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If there is a law of God which we break we are sinning. We are accountable for sins we know about, however, the Blood cleanses us from all sin if we walk in what light God gives to us.
2.sin is all unrighteousness,
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1Joh. 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
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When we do that which is unrighteous we are sinning. The Holy Spirit was given to lead us into all truth and to convict us of unrighteousness. He leads us out of temptation and He delivers us from evil. The killing of anyone without direction from God is sin. The killing of the innocent without God's directive is murder. If you are going to use the Old Testament model for war and executions, you must meet the Old Testament standards and guidelines. To kill at the hands of the State is not always justified and is often unjustified. We are called to be more than pawns in the hands of the State. We are His ambassadors calling men to reconciliation, not sent to kill the innocent. Killing the innocent without God's directive is unrighteous. This is not a blanket statement saying that I believe all Christian men and women in the service of the State are sinning. Most of them will never kill. But when they obey a wicked order, they are committing unrigteousness, therefore they are sinning and they are accountable for their action. Otherwise the Germans who obeyed Hitler and the SS are without sin. I don't think so.
3. sin is when we do not do that which we know to be good,
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James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
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Therefore there are things which may be sin to me and not necessarily sin to you and likewise the other way around.
Yes I know that this is basic, but I basically view sin in the light of these verses. Therefore, I am not sure that I said that all killing is sin in the eyes of God. I believe it misrepresents what I have said and I know it misrepresents what I believe.
You went on to say,
quote:
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but NOT neccessarily a sin for a non-believers(armed policeman, military, guardsmen, etc.) to stop sinful/forceful/violent/murderous acts of wicked/disobedient individuals (in their line of duty of obeying the authorities that God has placed over them) in order to maintain civil order and peace for ALL to enjoy the benefits of such. What I don't understand is where in the New Testament you find scriptures to back up your position that God says certain sins(i.e. violnt actions) are not O.K. for Christians to commit and yet that same sin is O.K. for certain non-believers to commit.
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If it is sin, it is not O.K. for anyone. But please don't fault me for the sin which already exists in sinners. I have been there, done that and got the cleansing of the Blood when I confessed, believed and repented. So can they.
I cannot explain to you all of God's point of view on this issue, all I can tell you is, IF WE LIVE BY THE NEW TESTAMENT MODEL AND BY NEW TESTAMENT STANDARDS, CHRISTIANS DON'T KILL. SHOW ME OTHERWISE IN THE NEW TESTAMENT. ONE EXAMPLE, ONE VERSE...IT ISN'T THERE.
As far as,
quote:
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that kind of reasoning and logic is inconsistent thinking with someone who shares your exact position in this matter.
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You can't say that, because you don't understand my exact position.
You made reference to me calling someone else to fight my fight for me. I am disappointed in such a statement. I have always said that God has given the sword to the State to protect the righteous and punish the wicked. That is God's ordained way. But as far as someone else fighting my fights, I don't think so.You do not have any idea about what you speak. Paul called on the State when his life was in jeopardy, yet he did not take up arms to protect himself. I think you need to sit down, count to ten and allow God to correct you for such an unkind statement. As smart as you are, you know that such a statement implies cowardice, regardless of what you meant. I have a right to call on the State to protect me. I have a legal right and I have a Biblical right. I also have an obligation to my own personal nonviolence before God. I have a right and an obligation for those around me who are facing danger. Even if you do not understand it or approve of it. Just because you cannot understand it does not make it untrue. By the way, whatever made you think that calling upon law enforcement would necessarily result in violence even here in our own violent America. There are police forces in other parts of the world which seldom are called upon to use violence. You are like a person who cannot detect odors or tastes, yet you stand there telling me that lemon pie has no taste. And Paul was no coward. Neither were the many others who would rather die than go against their convictions.
I have had plenty of occasions facing off with violent and wicked men. I have had nothing but God and His truth to protect me. I have lived in both large and small cities from California to North Carolina, from Ohio to Texas. When either myself or some other innocent person was in need of police protection, there have been more occasions when the police have sided with the perps than with the victims. I have gone into situations and confronted known murderers when the police would hang back and beg me not to take a stand against them. I have had to defuse situations with violent and threatening men when the police were too scared to get involved. Not all of them are that way, but don't tell me about getting someone to fight my battles. If a person is fighting wickedness, they are being used as God's instrument, not mine. Most big talkers couldn't or wouldn't face their enemy without a gun. And usually they want to make sure they have the biggest gun before they face their enemy, so don't talk to me about somebody fighting my battles.
Just because you have never faced the prince of the power of the air with only the power of the Prince of Peace in the "real world", don't tell me what works and what doesn't. I have agreed time and again that God has given the sword to the State to protect the righteous and punish the wicked but you have not once acknowledged that the power of God in us is greater than he that is in the world, the real world with real needs and real threats, except in some "spritual, Church, Christian" way. Come on... Join the real army and drive back the powers of darkness with the sword of Light. Put your faith in the Spirit and not in horses and chariots.
Is there room for both the sword of the State and the Sword of the Spirit in the real world facing off with violent men? Yes and No. Yes from my point of view and No from yours. I acknowledge the power of the sword of the State, but do not acknowledge the power of peace and nonviolence. Instead you mock it.
I have told y'all time and again, I do not know what I would do in any given situation, yet I know this, I have seen the power of peace defeat the power of violence more times than not. I have seen men who were ready to beat me and even kill me, crumple under the power of the Holy Spirit because I trusted God and not the arm of flesh. I have put myself in harms way to protect others and watched as God disarmed and discomfitted the violent one. Don't talk to me about me getting someone to fight my fights for me. If they are in law enforcement, they are supposed to be doing God's will. If they are in the military, they are supposed to be doing God's will. If they walk in God' light, they may be led out of law enforcement or the military. I hope the world does not collapse because there are too many people who are seeking to live as peacemakers.
And do not presume to tell me that more innocents suffer because of my nonviolence than your violence. You don't know what ministries I have been involved in to protect the oppressed or stop the wave of wickedness in my community. Maybe you have done something commendable, I hope so. But falsly faulting others is not helping anyone.
I will say this, I think there are moments when truth overcomes your zeal and you seem to get closer to the target. I hope you can find the good and see how far it goes. It is not difficult to find men who will trust in the arm of flesh, there are very few who trust in God in the real world.
And to keep the record straight, No! I do not take offence at your shooting straight. I am just trying to improve your aim, at least on me.
One final thought on this post. I hope others do not find this more in depth type of discussion to be offensive. I for one enjoy reading what you all have to say. I would like to think this is one of those occasions when "iron sharpens iron." I am working my way through each posting directed toward me.
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Response from "L"
Disciple
Nov 20, 2002 5:36:16 pm
Promiselander,
I must say that I have also enjoyed our "little" debate as well (and really it is little in light of all that God has done for each of us and our mutual Christian love). I would definitely like to meet you sometime and would consider you a great brother in Christ I am sure. (At least I know you wouldn't hit me!)
On to more serious things, I do agree with many of your points, as I have stated, I just can't see how your application takes into consideration other portions of Scripture. I consider myself to be yet a babe in understanding God and His Word (maybe I will have a lot more to say after I translate the Bible into an unreached language [which is where I feel God is leading me]). I am studying as much as I can, and learning daily, and this discussion has caused me to look long and hard at the Scriptures. Everywhere in the Bible I see more and more the nature and will of God revealed to me. It is awesome. Please don't take offense at my charges of heresy, since I have discovered areas of my life (as well as previous sermons!) which were mostly heresy. I define that as "saying that God says something that He doesn't."
I do understand a lot of your points on how we need to get back to New Testament Christianity, but I think in this one area, you are misapplying the principles on which Christianity is founded. In your last post you said,
quote:
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I have a right to call on the State to protect me. I have a legal right and I have a Biblical right. I also have an obligation to my own personal nonviolence before God.
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You forgot to mention that you also have an obligation to help the state protect itself and others (Romans 13, Matthew 22). I see this as superceding your so-called obligation to non-violence. You see it the other way around, but I don't see from whence.
Just so you don't have to repeat yourself, you also said
quote:
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The killing of anyone without direction from God is sin.
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I would agree with that, but what about the fact that rulers are ministers of God and are speaking on His behalf? This is true, even when they don't realize it.
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Response from Promiselander
Nov 21, 2002 3:02:11 am
Well, I cannot believe I am about to catch up. There have been some really good posts in here; deeply thought through, wisely worded, sensitive, provocative, intellectual, spiritual, powerful and instructive. Oh and y'all have said some O.K. things too. rofl I am only kidding.
Let me try to resond to posts from C, L and K.
Bro.C said,
quote:
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I understand your view on police action. You think it would be wrong for you to act in violence against a perpetrator, but that it would not be wrong to call a policeman, because hopefully the policeman is not a Christian, and is acting only as an agent of the state.
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Close but not exactly.
It would not be wrong to call a policeman because God has set up the system of protection and punishment. I would hope that if there is a Christian policeman on the force, he will come, and God in His wisdom will use him to solve the problem for His glory. I never hope that anyone is not a Christian. Also, I see the State as being the agent of God and therefore I see the law officer as an agent of God. Unhappily, far too many of them do not see their first responsibility to God. The wearing of the blue does not mean that they are true-blue to God. I just don't see the absolute need for violence in every situation that some of y'all do. Most confrontations between law enforcement and perpetrators do not end in violence. Very few law officers ever have to use violent force or deadly force to do their jobs. When that happens, I leave it with God and try to be available to those in need, on either side.
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Bro. L said,
quote:
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I would have to say that you are asking the wrong question when you are asking "What would Jesus do?" and equating that with what He did do and taking it as guidance for your life. The question should be "what would Jesus have me to do?"
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If you read my posts carfully you should see that I do ask for His guidance in my life, in other words, I ask what Jesus would have me to do. When asked earlier what I would do when faced with danger, I did say,
quote:
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I hope I would be alert to God's leading, and that I would act like Jesus [or at least like Jesus would wants me to act.] I don't know what that might involve. But this I believe, I would want to be nonviolent. This does not mean passive. I would hope to be pro-active in behalf of my loved one and to the glory of God. I would want to be like Jesus. I would want to please Him above all else.
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When pointing out that we should not seek to be like Jesus, you said,
quote:
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Otherwise you might be running around throwing people out of churches all over the place.
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C'mon Bro. give me a break. There were events in the life of Jesus which were peculiar to Him and His earthly ministry. I also would not seek to be crucified. In wanting to be like Jesus I am referring to His character and being conformed to His image. I want to live my life in total conformity to His will.
Also remember, Peter told us,
1Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
1Pe 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
Along with Paul's statements,
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Phi 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
1Th 1:6 And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost.
And John's position,
1Jo 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
1Jo 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
I believe there are plenty of passages which indicate our following Jesus and seeking to be like Him. I realize you probably don't accept my "interpretation", but then again, I am not interpreting. I am just quoting. By the way, the proper interpretation of Scripture is very seldom limited to a single application of It's meaning. Whereas I may not disagree with the way you explain a passage, you often deny my understanding as if there is no room for the nonviolent application. It is not because the passage disallows nonviolence but because you have already decided that It cannot have a nonviolent meaning. Scripture does not mean what we want It to mean, but It does mean what It means whether we like it or not. Scripture often has an immediate application and and ultimate application with occasional applications somewhere in between. This is a sound hermeneutical principle. Don't discard it.
You also said,
quote:
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And on the gun thing (which is off topic), it becomes a matter of deciding which law is higher, the constitution or lesser laws.
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I do not agree about the gun thing being "off topic." It had been stated that we Christians need to obey the State since they have the God given authority to rule over us. I figured that some of you would not allow the State to take away your guns. If you do not allow for the State to remove your guns, you are inconsistant in your position concerning yielding to Caesar. I knew that some of you don't really believe in the authority of Caesar in the way you are declaring it to me. So, no it was not off topic and I did not get answers because y'all knew that you would be contradicting yourselves. There are many questions which I have asked which go unanswered because the answers would be devastating to y'alls position. And I only want you to see the flaw in your slaw so that you might look for an answer which is unwavering.
You also said,
quote:
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You forgot to mention that you also have an obligation to help the state protect itself and others (Romans 13, Matthew 22). I see this as superceding your so-called obligation to non-violence. You see it the other way around, but I don't see from whence
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Don't you worry your pretty little head about me and those two passages, I am going there as soon as I can. However, I don't see that my obligation to obey Jesus in nonviolence is ever superceeded by any man made laws and they are never contradicted by God made laws.
And finally to L in this post, you said.
quote:
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I would agree with that, but what about the fact that rulers are ministers of God and are speaking on His behalf? This is true, even when they don't realize it.
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Rulers are ministers of God when they are representing God and His truth. I am never obligated to obey any power when it is not obedient to God. Anarchy is anarchy whether it is in the jailhouse or the Whitehouse. Not only am I not obligated to obey the State when it requires me to disobey God, I am forbidden to obey the State when it usurps God's authority. I understand this principle, but it appears that I stand pretty much alone on this issue in this discussion group.
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Bro. K said,
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I believe from Scripture that we are to use force to protect others from random/meditated evil(i.e. rape, domestic violence, terrorist activities).
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Will you please share those Scriptures with me? Of course I am looking for New Testament passages.
He also said,
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Like I said, I think violence should be an absolute last option, but in our world it must be used sometimes!
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I have never disagreed with this point of view.
And finally Bro. K said,
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I don't expect anyone to reply to any of this because you all have more circular argumentation to attend to!
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I am just glad you are sharing with us. I was hoping you would come back in and participate. I have also missed Bros. J and R (if I forgot someone, I am sorry).
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